M50 swap

[chbimmer]

I know there is a sticky thread on this one but i want to know from anyone that has one please let me know....do you think it is worth it? Is it faST? I mean i dont ever think i have read about the after on these swaps. Maybe people dont have toime to post after they are done, cause they are in the car having a ton o fun. how much heavier is the M50 than the M20? let me know any up or downs you might have.

[BeauB]

Is it worth it, well depends on what you are going to use it for. I went with a S50, and before I did the euro hfm my buddy with a cam'ed S50 e36 said it felt just as fast. Yes it is fast, I would say high 13's low 14's depending on how good I can drive.

Beau

[matty21]

Definitly worth it. I also did the s50 swap. VERY VERY VERY fun. Sounds nice too at 7000rpm.
Its fun pulling up beside new cars and beating the pants off em with a 15 year old bmw.

A buddy of mine has an36 4 door m3 and it cant keep up either!!
:D

[M-technik-3]

You forgot the other factors...reliability, no timing belt, Plenty of e36's out there with lower mileage than most e30's.

An aftermarket that is still manufactering parts for these engines.

[matty21]

You forgot the other factors...reliability, no timing belt, Plenty of e36's out there with lower mileage than most e30's.

An aftermarket that is still manufactering parts for these engines.

=D> the more logical reasons. Very well done.

[KnYnE]

i dont want to be a hater, and i know im probly going to get slamed for this!

But thats a heavy engine, and the e30 suspension isnt designed for that kind of weight distrubtion. But is a clean, popular swap and you can find a alot of help.

[matty21]

The engine itself isnt that much heavier!! not noticable in handling at all. I heard somewhere that its only 60lbs heavier.....So get a carbon fiber bonnet and be done with it.

[KnYnE]

its such a clean swap tho, i cant hate on it too much

[nick_318is]

I was reading something earlier today about doing this swap in a 318is, they said the engine really wasn't that much heavier then what was in the e30.

Here is the quote:
I Hate These Questions, Too
First, I want to apologize for asking this question. I have a 1991 318is with about 85,000 miles. The car is pretty good for my type of driving. Now the M42 engine, however fun it is, still does not have the power I want. I have looked at the M50 swap and it is down to a very fine science. The 318is is a VERY tossable car. I was wondering about the relative weights of the M50 2.8-liter engine in the Z3 and the M50 3.2-liter engine in the M3. I don't want to just drop some metal in the front of my car because its got the most displacement. I want a Bimmer that will turn well.
Geoff
Ann Arbor, Michigan

No need to apologize, Geoff. We think this is a perfectly reasonable question. In fact, the ever-increasing girth of each successive new BMW model is cause for much foot stomping in enthusiast circles. You're right; at 2,602 lb., the E30 318is is a very svelt performer. It's even skinnier than an E30 M3. I, too, have lived with the M42 engine for quite a while, but like you I just hate to give up that weight advantage.

Normally, we would direct a question like this to Pete McHenry of Precision Performance in Winston-Salem, N. C. Pete is the undisputed master of BMW engine swaps and engine part interchangeability. Unfortunately he was unavailable, so we turned to his second in command, son Stuart McHenry. As it turns out, you, me, and Stuart all own the same car! His reply: "The lightweight M50 conversion uses the 2.8-liter Z3 aluminum block (52 pounds lighter), an aluminum flywheel, aluminum Z3 tubular lightweight exhaust manifold, and the M coupe (smaller) A/C compressor (or just ditch the AC altogether). This combination yields the same weight as an S14 engine from an E30 M3." Bear in mind that this engine, along with any from the M50 family, will bolt right up to your gearbox. With the weight so close, I don't think there would be any need to change front springs or shocks over to 325i units as is the case with most six-cylinder conversions. Combined with your 4.10 differential or a 4.27 from an M42-powered 318i convertible, this car will scoot away like a wet cat with sneakers.

http://www.europeancarweb.com/tech/techletters/0000ec_techletters02d/

Thought that might be interesting[/b]

[equilibrium11]

whats the cost that one of these swaps would be???

[matty21]

first time doing the swap> 5-6grand

[matty21]

first time doing the swap properly> 5-6grand

[chbimmer]

well i have been doing some reaserch and it will not really cost that much if you can get the motor cheap. there has een alot of ppl that have done the swap and said that the m50 will bolt onto the e30 subframe. I also heard that the e30 radiator was fine as well. i have stimated with all the parts 1500 tops for me. i have already got an m50 lined up for cheap. i know that treehouse racing in nashville makes a plug and play harnes for all the check engine lights and the tach signal ect...

[chbimmer]

ohh that dosent include my time. or anyone else. that simly the motor and all the stuff needed. if i want to get a water pump and maybe some gaskts..... that has not been added in the price that is a base.

[matty21]

Mabey for an m50 but an s50 is 5-6grand.
Be carefull how cheap you go on the engine. You get what you pay for.
I mean sure you can get a m50 with with 200,000 miles on it for probably 500 bucks but why? You should spend extra to get a GOOD engine thats not worn out.

Yeah it pretty much just falls neetly into place provided you has the correct offset motor mounts. Also, you can use your e30 radiator and tranny to save some money. But once you start cutting corners thats when things go wrong. Trying to find the correct oilpan is quite difficult now aswell if you are looking for a used one. I dont think there are any anywhere in the US. Gotta get new one. It ads up very quickly.
Advice> Save up atleast 3 grand then start buying all the parts, then do it
otherwise you might get some suprises during the install and/or run out of money, then your car will be sitting for alot longer than it was supposed to.IMO.

As for the treehouse wire harness. DONT BUY IT I made my wire own harness using part of my old m20 harness and another e36 harness and it took me 20 minutes to solder the correct wires together. And every thing works like a charm.

[chbimmer]

Yeah you are right.....The car that i am getting has 110k on it. Actually the car is very drivable buit the harness in the car is fried so there are no insturments or really any electricity in the car. but the body is in great shape. I almost would like to keep it and do an LS1 swap in it but that is just a dream. the people just want to rid of the car and so they have priced it to sell. the good thing is that no one around here thinks it would be worth fixing so i have an M50 with a 5speed and the harness all to myself. I still havent made up my mind if i am going to do the swap or not yet but i do know i want the car.

[chbimmer]

oh matty21.....What brake booster did you use.

[BeauB]

you use an e21 brake booster

Beau

[Bigg Knife]

How much difference is there between the m50 and s50.

[BIMMER]

Here is all the information plus options of how to do the m50 or s50 swap you will ever want to know:
http://www.centralbimmers.com/Article_M50_Conversion.aspx

Complete with pics and a step by step how to.

I did not read this whole thread but here are some things I will note:

-You dont need to use the treehouse conneciton this link tells you how to make the adapter for nothing
-I ( this is nothing but an opinion) do not like tree house cabs . . . I recommend using m3 offset . . .yes it can be done.

- If you are going to use this swap you are going to spend 5-10 grand. Depending on the decisions you make and how much quality fabrication and parts you are willing to do/ buy.

-If you are going to do this swap I recommend zero timing your engine . . . head block everything remachined, resealed, like new.

-Do not use the 325ix brake booster use the e21 320i brake booster

-I would also use an e36 m3 transmission.

[Rook]

Awesome info BIMMER. =D>

[matty21]

I agree. if you need any help pm me

[Sunny]

Damn that's a good article. Makes me want to forget about modifying the m20.

[Curtis325is]

I was reading something earlier today about doing this swap in a 318is, they said the engine really wasn't that much heavier then what was in the e30.

Here is the quote:

No need to apologize, Geoff. We think this is a perfectly reasonable question. In fact, the ever-increasing girth of each successive new BMW model is cause for much foot stomping in enthusiast circles. You're right; at 2,602 lb., the E30 318is is a very svelt performer. It's even skinnier than an E30 M3. I, too, have lived with the M42 engine for quite a while, but like you I just hate to give up that weight advantage.



I really hate when uneducated 318is drivers think that the lower weight of their car is due to the 4 cyl engine. That M42 is a big engine, with a big 4 valve twin cam head, it isn't much lighter then the M20. Also, the lower weight of the 318is isn't all taken off the front of the car so the balance isn't that much different from a 325, if it is any different at all. The real weight loss of the 318is is things like smaller weaker drivetrain (small rear diff, small tranny, smaller driveshaft etc), less standard options (most don't have sunroof or OBC etc), smaller single exhaust, smaller radiator, smaller cooling system, smaller springs/sways (i assume). So, since the balance of the 318is is very similar to the balance of the 325is they will handle very very similarly on the street, to the point where you can't say one handles better then the other (in fact the extra power of the 325i would out weigh the 200lb weight penalty and make it the faster car). All you can really say about the 318is is that it should brake better then the 325i since it is lighter and has the same brakes. (but if you need more stopping power then brakes can easily be upgraded)

Adding an M50 or S50 to the front of the 318is won't affect the cars handling and won't add much weight (especially the aluminum block engines), it is all the other things you would have to change in the 318is that adds the weight, which is why it isn't as good a starting point for an M50 S50 swap because you are forced to change out the entire cooling system, drivetrain, and some suspension (although I would change all those things on the 325i car also to make the swap as good as it could be).

[BIMMER]

double bump

Good explanation . . not many people realize the m20. m50 and m42 are pretty much the same weight

[Rook]

What happened to the link? It doesn't work anymore. :smt085

[Skatebline]

yeah i know, i just tryed the link........nothing :pale:

Is there another link like that one????

[El Mero Mero]

double bump

Good explanation . . not many people realize the m20. m50 and m42 are pretty much the same weight

How much the same is "pretty much the same" less than 50 lbs or more?

[El Mero Mero]

In response to my own question, I did a quick google and found this: http://www.bimmerforums.com/engine_faq/

M42
Straight 4 cylinder DOHC 16V. 1989-1996. 100kg 220lbs

M20
Straight 6 cylinder SOHC 12V. Baby Six. 1977-1992. 117kg 258lbs

M50/M50TU
Straight 6 DOHC 24V/Straight 6 DOHC 24V with Single VANOS. 1989-1998. 136kg 299lbs

If that's accurate then that is pretty close. What kind of mods are available for the M50? Cause as I understand in stock trim an M50B25 only makes about 20 HP more than an M20B25. That's almost achievable with a good chip. There has to be at least 50+HP in it for it to be worth it.

An S50 would be a much more worthwhile swap, but it weighs a little more, 333lbs according to that page. In that case the M5's S38 weighs the same and makes more power. Is the S50 swap cleaner/easier than a big six?

[e30de89]

whats wrong with the 325ix brake booster?

[dom]

too big. when people swap m/s50's they opt for smaller ones.

[twism]

m50 engine is very affordable swap I think...if I had e30 I'll put m50 inside for sure!actually I saw one m50 engine for sale here in the forum for 800$ with everything!also the m50 engine has aluminum block and that makes it's weight similar to the m20 engine. and last thought...I think single vanos is better than doulbe :-k

m50power (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jalmo2nHVAo)

see the link ;)

[stumc18is]

I was reading something earlier today about doing this swap in a 318is, they said the engine really wasn't that much heavier then what was in the e30.

Here is the quote:

No need to apologize, Geoff. We think this is a perfectly reasonable question. In fact, the ever-increasing girth of each successive new BMW model is cause for much foot stomping in enthusiast circles. You're right; at 2,602 lb., the E30 318is is a very svelt performer. It's even skinnier than an E30 M3. I, too, have lived with the M42 engine for quite a while, but like you I just hate to give up that weight advantage.



I really hate when uneducated 318is drivers think that the lower weight of their car is due to the 4 cyl engine. That M42 is a big engine, with a big 4 valve twin cam head, it isn't much lighter then the M20. Also, the lower weight of the 318is isn't all taken off the front of the car so the balance isn't that much different from a 325, if it is any different at all. The real weight loss of the 318is is things like smaller weaker drivetrain (small rear diff, small tranny, smaller driveshaft etc), less standard options (most don't have sunroof or OBC etc), smaller single exhaust, smaller radiator, smaller cooling system, smaller springs/sways (i assume). So, since the balance of the 318is is very similar to the balance of the 325is they will handle very very similarly on the street, to the point where you can't say one handles better then the other (in fact the extra power of the 325i would out weigh the 200lb weight penalty and make it the faster car). All you can really say about the 318is is that it should brake better then the 325i since it is lighter and has the same brakes. (but if you need more stopping power then brakes can easily be upgraded)

Adding an M50 or S50 to the front of the 318is won't affect the cars handling and won't add much weight (especially the aluminum block engines), it is all the other things you would have to change in the 318is that adds the weight, which is why it isn't as good a starting point for an M50 S50 swap because you are forced to change out the entire cooling system, drivetrain, and some suspension (although I would change all those things on the 325i car also to make the swap as good as it could be).

Wow, that's a lot of incorrect information man!

I don't want to type a novel but here are a few things that need to be clarified:

1) The 318 M42 engine is VERY light. It's based on cylinder spacing of an M20 or M50 engine, and is considerably more compact than an M10 4-cylinder. An M42 longblock with accessories weighs about 315 minus the clutch and flywheel. The M20 is about 390 w/o clutch and flywheel.

2) The 318 handles well because the MUCH lighter engine does not hang over the front of the subframe, like the 6-cylinders.

3) The drivetrain weight makes some difference but does not account for everything. The total savings of the small-case rearend and G240 trans is maybe 30 pounds.

4) Smaller springs? Smaller swaybars? Wrong.

5) YES, you can say that the 318 handles better than the 325. 318is's are advertised at 2,602 but I've never had one on a scale (even in full trim) that was over 2,550. 325is cars typically weigh in the upper 2700's. A car that is over 200 pounds lighter and has the engine placement of the 318is will handle better than the 325. Go drive each of them, all else being equal, the 318 will be much nimbler and easier to rotate/plant the front end.

[TriFlow]

Anyone got good links on how to do the swap.??

My buddy just pick up a 93 325i for $400 bucks..

[sly-ix]

whats wrong with the 325ix brake booster?

nice your from auburn, im from renton :D


BOT, same Q as above

[kangamangusdriver]

I have used the IX booster and had zero problems.

Is there somthing more that Im missing?

[jogfrogjog]

Anyone got good links on how to do the swap.??


bump +1

[chbimmer]

not me, I backed out of my swap and my car has been sitting ever since. I do have the 666 adapter, MS1 V3, and wideband. I should be pulling the motor sometime this month and i am at least a year overdue.

[jogfrogjog]

there is this that I found posted by Bimmer

http://www.rmeuropean.com/bmw-e30-m50-swap.html

[Forced325]

"The lightweight M50 conversion uses the 2.8-liter Z3 aluminum block (52 pounds lighter), an aluminum flywheel, aluminum Z3 tubular lightweight exhaust manifold, and the M coupe (smaller) A/C compressor (or just ditch the AC altogether). This combination yields the same weight as an S14 engine from an E30 M3."

That's what I'm doing with a modest turbo. 1997 Z3 2.8 short block was $ 1000, 1992 complete m50 with 71k miles $200. Using the e30 trans and megasquirt. Need to finish the e21 v8 and then get an e30 rust free roller or if I blow the m20 turbo (and I will be showing it no mercy on the track) swap it into my existing car.

[Soviet1942]

Okay, I read every post but couldn't find a clear answer. A S50 with run 5-6grand for the swap. How much for the M50? Not just the engine, the whole swap.

I know that in a salvage yard you need a license to buy the car, where can you buy a wrecked or abandoned car without a sellers license?

[jogfrogjog]

bimmerboy570 has a setup for sale that he didn't install in his car yet, hit him up... I think it just needs a clutch and water pump and he's got everything else for way under 2 grand...

[dontay]

Heres some for sale on craigslists.. Great Price,and the first one has great mileage..

http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/pts/588691182.html

http://austin.craigslist.org/pts/580363763.html

[BIMMER]

Okay, I read every post but couldn't find a clear answer. A S50 with run 5-6grand for the swap. How much for the M50? Not just the engine, the whole swap.

I know that in a salvage yard you need a license to buy the car, where can you buy a wrecked or abandoned car without a sellers license?

Take the link that I threw out there and get on car-parts.com and start sourcing. If you are going to do the work yourself all you need is parts.

My engine is an m50 engine with m52 328 crank and rods with 325i pistons and an s50 head. I make exactly 245 brake horse, exact same as an m3. I bought a custom turner chip made for this setup etc. It is way fun. More fun than an s50 in my opinion. . . higher compression and more responsive.

My point: If your going to do it you might as well spend another $1000-2000 and do it right. Trust me you will be happier in the long run.

M50 done right . . .
Used328 tranny-$500
346 diff-$300
M3 clutch-$280
Used Flywheel-$50
z3 stick-60,upper support $20
Used Slave Cylinder-$50
Driveshaft . . . . Reuse?
Engine m50 325 . . .0r m52 . . . complete $1200-1500
Engine mounts-$70
ECU-$125
5 series oil pan-$150
e21 brake booster-$50-60
Exhaust headers stock m3 or used standard-$50
Exhaust work-$150-500+ . . . depends on who does it and what you use
All this and I am sure there are things I am missing . . . .and you haven' refreshed engine components: thermostat, air cone filter or box setup, gaskets . . . etc.

[Soviet1942]

Take the link that I threw out there and get on car-parts.com and start sourcing. If you are going to do the work yourself all you need is parts.

My engine is an m50 engine with m52 328 crank and rods with 325i pistons and an s50 head. I make exactly 245 brake horse, exact same as an m3. I bought a custom turner chip made for this setup etc. It is way fun. More fun than an s50 in my opinion. . . higher compression and more responsive.

My point: If your going to do it you might as well spend another $1000-2000 and do it right. Trust me you will be happier in the long run.

M50 done right . . .
Used328 tranny-$500
346 diff-$300
M3 clutch-$280
Used Flywheel-$50
z3 stick-60,upper support $20
Used Slave Cylinder-$50
Driveshaft . . . . Reuse?
Engine m50 325 . . .0r m52 . . . complete $1200-1500
Engine mounts-$70
ECU-$125
5 series oil pan-$150
e21 brake booster-$50-60
Exhaust headers stock m3 or used standard-$50
Exhaust work-$150-500+ . . . depends on who does it and what you use
All this and I am sure there are things I am missing . . . .and you haven' refreshed engine components: thermostat, air cone filter or box setup, gaskets . . . etc.
So that is everything everything EVERYTHING that I would need for a swap?

[BIMMER]

Everything I can remember right now . . . follow the link, it is all there.
http://www.rmeuropean.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=7

[Soviet1942]

Awesome, thanks for the info.