Any Motronic geeks left? [Archive]

Forced_Firebird

09-23-2010, 05:42 PM

Who else is emulating, or messing around with the Motronic tuning?

Just got a nice sized package from Moates including an emulator, spare chips, chip extender and some stuff I needed for my GM projects like a memcal adapter and ALDL datalog cable etc, can't wait to get started! Weather sucks right now, and the laptop is at my shop so tomorrow will get the chip extender installed so the chip port will be in the glove box and don't have to remove the ECU every time it needs to get hooked up.

Any suggestions or pointers before I get started? I am familiar with the chip burner etc and have messed around with the eeprom burner for my GM ECM, and even a little for a MAF conversion Motronic, but was doing things the long way around (removing/installing the chips a million times etc) since I was so used to having datalogging in the GM stuff.

everlast

09-23-2010, 08:40 PM

Pm'd you.

Tchao

09-23-2010, 09:09 PM

Yeah for one coil driver and batch fire! Woot woot!

Forced_Firebird

09-23-2010, 09:41 PM

Yeah for one coil driver and batch fire! Woot woot!

Actually the Motronic 1.3 is SFI, hence the "cam sensor" on the plug wire ;)

Thanks for the tip, Everlast, I have a semi-grip on tuning itself, but this will be the first endeavor tuning with limited datalogging and no knock sensor o.0

Eventually I want to put a GM ECM in the car with SFI, DIS, knock sensors and full dataloging, but for now will play around with the Motronic. I already have access to lots of info from ECUproject, TunerPRO, Moates and from GM tuning sites (use the same PROMS),even did a MAF conversion on an m20, but couldn't get it to work properly on my friend's turbo car - probably will try it on my NA car - it kept blowing dead rich after a significant load or RPMs were reached. Having an emulator should help, but it seems that without being able to read sensors directly, hacking the ECU might be a bit of a challenge, and burning chips gets tiresome. Furthermore with the MS stuff out there, the Motronic tuning is becoming voodoo, but because of it's simplicity, hacking it should be more than doable.

everlast

09-24-2010, 11:16 AM

It all comes down to knowing the addresses of the maps in the binaries. I've see first hand how some of the well-known files for TunerPro are incorrect. It explains why things seem to work at first then fail for no good reason; your tuning isn't the problem as you sound like you have a great grip on what you need to do, you just might not be tuning the right part of the map.

NoScoE30

09-24-2010, 11:21 AM

Actually the Motronic 1.3 is SFI, hence the "cam sensor" on the plug wire ;)

I can only assume sfi means sequential fuel injection, which the motronic 1.3 is not. Batch fire all the way baby ;)

winfred

09-24-2010, 03:55 PM

i guess SSFI would be more accurate semi sequential fuel injection, odd and even firing, thats part of the reason Is are less noisy at idle then Es with all 6 sticks banging away (low Z injectors on E are a bit louder too) mine on MSII firing 6 squirts and even/odd you can't even hear the injectors

Actually the Motronic 1.3 is SFI, hence the "cam sensor" on the plug wire ;)

Forced_Firebird

09-24-2010, 04:32 PM

I can only assume sfi means sequential fuel injection, which the motronic 1.3 is not. Batch fire all the way baby ;)

Well batch fire has no need to sense the #1 cyl ;) All the inj do NOT fire at the same time with the 1.3...

i guess SSFI would be more accurate semi sequential fuel injection, odd and even firing, thats part of the reason Is are less noisy at idle then Es with all 6 sticks banging away (low Z injectors on E are a bit louder too) mine on MSII firing 6 squirts and even/odd you can't even hear the injectors

Thanks for the confirmation. Actually it's the impedance of the injectors that dictates noise more so than the the cycles - remember we are talking milliseconds and since batch fire fires all of them at the same time, there's less pulses because fuel is being added even when that particular bank is not in need of fuel. I used some Ford injectors in my Firebird and they seemed to be much louder than the stock ones, same Delphi injectors, only with 5# more at the same fuel pressure...

Anyways back on topic, uploading pics of the new equipment now. Have some headers that need to keep moving on (making a batch of 8 sets), so the plan is to load the stock .bin in the Ostrich and take the laptop with me so I can start messing with it. :D

gstuning

09-24-2010, 04:43 PM

No the M1.3 fires in batches of 3.

That cam sensor is there for diagnostics, the ecu has no ability to use it for anything.

NOTORIOUS VR

09-24-2010, 05:05 PM

Forced_Firebird

09-24-2010, 05:47 PM

Curious... After all of that $$ spent for the gear to tune the stock ECU, with a barn door (AFM) that is useless to no end, batch injection, etc...

You don't think it would have been better put to use to buy a MS or VEMS unit?

No. I spent $175 on something I need to tune the stock GM ECM's anyways - well maybe not NEED makes tuning faster, no chips to burn except the one that stays in the vehicle. I have been burning chips for GM stuff for some time now, but it's fairly easy to do with datalogging - GM has a data stream, knock sensors, and I can monitor all of the other sensors real time, read WBo2, recognize up to 3 atmospheres, have boost controlled by vehicle speed, autotune, do SFI/MPFI, waste spark, anti-lag etc etc etc, they have been hacked since the late 80's. Now, instead of doing a run while taking a datalog, swapping the chips out, then re-logging, I can have real time data emulation and on the fly tuning. Also, with the new version of TunerPRO out, I can trace the data as the Motronic sees it, trace the addresses and make adjustments on the fly. Once I am happy with the tune, I will swap in a burned chip and go on my merry way.

Only thing I spent on the car itself is the chip extender ($20) and that was not needed, but will be easier to have a ribbon laying in the glove box instead of opening the ECU every time I want to access the PROM chip port.

NOTORIOUS VR

09-24-2010, 06:20 PM

Forced_Firebird

09-24-2010, 06:50 PM

But the E30 has none of what the GM ECU's do, it's old and outdated. In reality a modern calculator probably has more power then the M1.3... I guess if you're just tinkering and you had the hardware ok... but otherwise, meh.

Well it's a PROM chip lol, I have a burner that can do any chip up to 32pin. Yes it's to tinker, and also to help tune the locals' cars. This is the very same equipment that vendors selling chips has :D

Eventually I want a GM ECM in the e30, but baby steps, baby steps lol. Again, that would be for fun, I have stacks of the ECM's/wiring harnesses/sensors, pigtails etc, and even if I didn't, the ECM's are available at the junker for $13, pigtails are $3, sensors are a cple $$ each etc (only slightly more new). Again, this is my daily that get's tinkered with...I build headers, port heads, tune, make turbo kits, custom cams etc for GM v6 cars, but will use my shop as a stepping stone to have fun with the Bimmer.

omniscient

09-24-2010, 08:48 PM

I do! It's really fun and if I knew about it when I first started getting into E30's I would have gone this route instead of MS. As a professional tuner I already had all of the equipment needed to tune the DME. It's a perfectly capable ECU to handle the amount of power the common turbo E30 is making all you need to know is how to utilize it. All of the settings, adjustments, tinkering and modification you have to do to use a MS unit is already taken care of in the stock ECU and you also maintain diagnostics.

I have adapted a Porsche 803 MAF to the DME. It worked like it should except it wouldn't enter the high part throttle map because the MAF wasn't returning enough signal voltage to the DME although it can be fixed. It's almost like a loss of resolution. Instead I just put the AFM back on until I set the car up for the Volvo MAF this weekend to gain some of the resolution.

I did have to spend a good six months researching and reading to understand as much as I do about the stock Motronic but the ideology applies to almost every factory ECU which is highly beneficial to anyone who messes around with tuning.

I was stuck for a while until the owner of C2 motorsports told me the formula to motronic load instead of hiding it like a lot of people. Load in the motronic is the amount of fuel needed to create a stoich mixture at any given RPM. So you have the RPM axis and the load axis. Axis is derived as 0 being 0% of an injector pulsewidth (an injector constant) and 255 is 100%. So if you have a number like 180 in the load scalar you use the formula 180 devided by 256 and it gives you .70 or 70% of that predetermined pulsewidth. So if you double the injector size you need to scale the load axis at that cell on the scalar to 35%... just a rough idea. There is more to it like altering the injector constant and adjusting the load scales to match or altering the AFM maps.

So anywhoo, for pretty much no cost I have a fully capable, tunable ECU that was designed to work for the car. I won't have to make any threads about why I'm not getting spark or injectors, or fuel pump, or crank signal, no modification for idle control, no wiring at all really, etc. I still like MS but it was the alternative I had to take in lieu of tuning the stock DME.

Forced_Firebird

09-24-2010, 09:56 PM

Thanks omniscient! I remember that sig, you were one of the few who posted in my 173 Volvo MAF thread :D I am from NE, born in Brockton, Ma.

Anyways,

That's my thought exactly, the DME is already wired into the car, has diagnostics etc, and since it is in fact simple, then it is simple to modify if one has any experience with .bin files. Thanks for the tip on the 255 = 100%! I still have no idea why the Volvo MAF never worked properly in the turbo car, but at that time I didn't have an emulator since the GM has logging (mentioned above), and tuning by a WBo2, seat of the pants and guessing was just time consuming and not much got accomplished - we must have burned that chip about 150 times lol.

Have been working on building these headers since I got don with my 9-5er and haven't had a chance to even install the Ostrich yet, have an apprentice that comes in now/again and he's here tonight powdercoating for me while welding and take as much advantage as possible when there's help in the shop haha (yes I am still here 11pm EST).

omniscient

09-24-2010, 10:09 PM

I hear ya dude. I put in a lot of time at work as well. We just finished this and it ran for a while then randomly stopped. We spent a lot of time trying to figure out why and it ended up being that Lambo ECUs randomly shit the bed.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs232.snc4/38916_416097816963_151072591963_4742509_5881361_n. jpg

Anywhoo, the stock DME uses a predetermined injector constant in milliseconds. As you go through the idle, low and high throttle maps the load axis follows the constant. If you divide the numbers in the scalar by 256 you'll see it goes from like .5 to .60. This is 5% through 60%of the injector constant. You can either trick the DME into thinking the engine is seeing less or more air by altering the 1x8 AFM map which directly relates to the air/fuel ratio. When using a MAF that generates less voltage than the AFM at a specific flow of air you can correct this map which is similar to scalling the MAF table on cars when upgrading to a larger MAF. When using larger injectors you need to alter the injector constant in example cutting it in half when using injectors double the size of the original ones. When using larger injectors say double the size of the original ones you need to cut the injector constant in half. When tuning for boost you can alter the load axis of the high part throttle map for when boost starts coming on by changing the load axis. In example if the map starts at 40% and goes to 60% you can change the numbers in the axis with a hex editor to change the load to 50% through 85% which has a dramatic effect on air/fuel ratio. The numbers in the cells of the fuel maps are correction factors which is why they all hang around the same area of 128 or theoretically a value of 1. The numbers can stay relatively close because it is the load axis that determines the amount of fuel being injected. If you felt like it you could decrease the load axis and increase the numbers in the fuel table or increase the axis and decrease the numbers in the table and get the same results. A lot of people talk about scaling load but I've investigates many big company maps and they haven't changed much if anything with load scale even on an Active Autowerke 42lb injector, big MAF .bin file. They mostly alter the injector constant and correction factor numbers in the fuel table. It's really like tuning any other system. You need an injector constant and tables to build around it.

Forced_Firebird

09-24-2010, 10:51 PM

That kit looks familiar! I don't remember Heffner name being on it, though, but it ran like mad. TTv10 Murcielago came in my friend's shop down the street a few months ago. Stupid car would do 150mph between a long stretch of stop lights 0.o - he's also running an outlaw SBC-powered Regal DEEP in the singles. Good times :D

One of my favs is a 1994 Chev Corsica with a 3400/3500 modified v6 (yes Corsica, FWD car) that we put in the 12's, blew the trans up on the dyno at just over 350hp@3500rpm ROFL! Apparently the transaxles aren't made to run 7" slicks and do 113mph, and that was at 2.2+ 60' haha. Another was the "Moustang", 355 Chevy carb-power/th400 in a notch-back '86 5.0 body, we pulled 11.8's on all motor, 10.3 juiced.

omniscient

09-24-2010, 11:19 PM

Scroll up I edited my post it's a good read and that's awesome! It's cool to talk to another person as involved as I am! We do mainly German and Japanese stuff. We recently did a 800hp VW R32 and an 800hp Evo9. A lot of mid powered stuff..

Back when I was a teenager.. like 5 years ago my friend had a Corsica we were going to do the manual transmission swap and boost it but he went down an embankment and hit a tree in the snow and the car was totaled.

Also the thing that really made the tuning easy for me was Jeff Atwood the owner of C2 Motorsports. They make literally the best VW software, they've done cars for VW of America, he happens to be local to us and is good friends with my co-worker. He said ignore the formulas and random numbers just think of them as widgets and change them until the car runs good.

Forced_Firebird

09-24-2010, 11:31 PM

Teenager, 5yrs ago?!?! My first of four kids was born 12yrs ago last week o.0, and the Corsica build was almost about the same time as yours (could have been 4yrs, don't remember now). Currently building my 8th turbo kit that was fully built by these hands, and the only car with my name on the engine that will potentially be 800+hp is the 3.8 Camaro mentioned earlier, but I only ported the heads/manifolds and designed the camshaft. Got all the right equipment, just getting the name out there is the tough part. Started in the garage porting/welding etc, worked at a CNC machine shop for a while, then outgrew my little space in the CNC shop/my garage and opened a shop last Oct on my own - 1200sf quickly has become VERY tight and still is my 2nd job, welders, surface grinders, blasters, big compressors, flow bench, engines/stands etc takes up a lot of room.

Haven't been to NE since my daughter was born in 1998 (well one weekend for a wedding) but if ever that way, I know one place that will be on the agenda! Time to shut the shop down, not sleeping the day away tomorrow lol...

NOTORIOUS VR

09-25-2010, 07:53 AM

sounds like you guys are having fun with it, that's good.

I guess if you have the patience it's worth your while. Otherwise, I would much rather go with a standalone over the OE ECU. More options, and FAR, FAR faster to tune.

Now if you were talking about ME tuning on something like my S4, then yea I would keep the stock ECU for many reasons, instead of going with a standalone.

gstuning

09-25-2010, 08:05 AM

I´m doing a map sensor conversion on the old m1.3 very soon. will see how that goes. it´ll only be a 0-1bar guy so it should be real easy.

I´m going to use a scope to run some tests on these values in the hex and in the fuel maps to see if I can see the relationship between them.

i.e what does the injector constant do in terms of %´s changed to %´s changed in the injector pw at idle say.

everlast

09-25-2010, 10:36 AM

I like all the action in this thread, and while I used to think it was silly to try to tune the factory DME after seeing my buddy in action tuning in realtime with an emulator, I was impressed. (That said, I love my MS.)

But I had to LOL at this though:

I did have to spend a good six months researching and reading..

So anywhoo, for pretty much no cost I have a fully capable, tunable ECU...

I don't know about you guys, but I can make a lot of money in 6 months of spare time. I'm just joshing of course, god knows I've wasted more time on this site than I have doing volunteer work, or pretty much anything else worthwhile. :D

And please, post more pics of the big builds!

omniscient

09-25-2010, 11:15 AM

Haha, I make my money by doing the research in my spare time but I understand not everyone is in the automotive performance field and aren't as involved as I am. Trust me I've given myself migraines from hours on end of reading but the end result is totally worth it to me. If the DME tuning community wasn't so secretive it would be a lot easier to understand. Basically how it works is there's a mass of people who have no clue what they are doing or talking about and they ask the guys who make their living tuning Motronic DME's. So they lead everyone in circles, only give tidbits of information or just leave people hanging. Within the mass of people there are a few brilliant ones that are already well on their way of tuning the DME and understanding how it works. If there was a community backing the DME like there was MS on E30s we would already have a software interface like Crome, Hondata, DSM Link, ECU Connection, that would make tuning the DME just as easy as tuning MS. Like Jeff of C2 Motorsports had an inside programmer write up a tuning interface that turns all the random numbers and addresses into a point, click, type style tuning program much like MS.

omniscient

09-25-2010, 11:23 AM

winfred

09-25-2010, 12:47 PM

motronic 1.3 has so much going for it its hard not to like, it would be lovely to have access to all of the capability built into the platform, it has a MAF in the bmw v12 version and i even read somewhere one version has knock sensing capability (never found out what installation) it wouldn't surprise me if a board exists with all of these circuits on it corroding away in junkyards because the failure rate of 1.3 is so low they hardly ever sell (i know i have crushed dozens over the years because you can only have so many on the shelf) it would just need the right chip burned for awesomeness

i had planned to run my new toy (85 m635csi m88/3) on 1.3 with a maf conversion till i had the idea to run it on 3.3.1 (m50tu used this) just like the s38b38 had from the factory with COP MAF and knock sensors, so i am looking into tuning that platform

gstuning

09-25-2010, 01:06 PM

About the MAP thing. I think about it now and then and a sure fire solution would be to run an Apexi AFC inline with the DME and MAP sensor. I know it's not straight DME tuning but it would take a few hours of wiring and tuning to have a fully operation MAP system.

As for tuning the MAP sensor within the DME I'm still trying to figure it out in my head. I has to be possible.

The AFM system is a speed density system any way.

It measure pressure drop using the flapper door and air density using the air temp sensor.

It would be harder to do on a MAF car though.

As long as you don´t mind not having O2 loop, then you can use anything really as long as you adjust the axis to utilize the injector pw as needed and the fuel and ignition tables range is 255 anyway so plenty of resolution.

EDIT.

What I´m first going to do is run a fake trigger signal into the ecu so that it triggers the injectors , then I can adjust the MAP signal and see the behavior of the system without having a running engine. This will allow me to monitor pw without having to rev the engine in reality and I can then see how the system really behaves.

omniscient

09-25-2010, 01:39 PM

The only thing standing in the way of using a MAP sensor is the linear band of the MAP compared to the curve of the MAF and AFM. I haven't tried the conversion but it seems to me all it would take was a lengthy amount of tuning the load axis and correction cells of the fuel tables.

Forced_Firebird

09-25-2010, 11:54 PM

For those who haven't hooked an emulator up before...

I took apart a spare 153 DME ECU and attached the emulator to it, took about 20 mins. There is currently a 173 in the car and wanted to start with the spare just in case any mistakes were made o.0 The 173 has a single circuit board...

Started by taking the cover off and carefully pulling the top circuit board off...

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq202/Forced_Firebird/Bimmer/BMW055.jpg

pulled the stock chip out and replaced it with a chip extender so the ECU doesn't have to come apart if I want to pull the emulator out...

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq202/Forced_Firebird/Bimmer/BMW056.jpg

put the circuit board back in...

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq202/Forced_Firebird/Bimmer/BMW057.jpg

then connected the Ostrich 2.0 with the USB cable,installed the USB driver, plugged it in to the laptop and recognized the emulator immediatly. then loaded the stock .bin file from the 153 DME chip...

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq202/Forced_Firebird/Bimmer/BMW058.jpg

Forced_Firebird

09-26-2010, 02:12 PM

This stuff is so cool! I can't believe I was ever trying to burn chips for the Motronic ECU's.

I am using a definition from TunerPRO on the 153 DME, does anyone have another that may break the maps into dual axis? Maybe like inj vs TPS vs CTS etc? This is all 2d maps from this definition :(

Cple more pics. Seriously took no time to have the emulator up and running, data tracing is a click away. So awesome. Until I reach the limits of the Motronic, it's staying lol...

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq202/Forced_Firebird/Bimmer/BMW060.jpg

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq202/Forced_Firebird/Bimmer/BMW061.jpg

gstuning

09-26-2010, 03:49 PM

If it´s motronic 1.3 run the 173 files, it´ll all work the same, best if everybody sticks to the same bins and definitions

Forced_Firebird

09-26-2010, 05:49 PM

If it´s motronic 1.3 run the 173 files, it´ll all work the same, best if everybody sticks to the same bins and definitions

You mean run the 173 .bin and definition on the 153 DME?

omniscient

09-26-2010, 06:49 PM

yeah use 173 .bin files. The emulator is an amazing tool. I've been using on since 2005 and I couldn't see tuning any other way. After spending 170$ on the emulator and 85$ on the chip burner they paid for themselves since I usually charge 150$ for a street tune so after two tunes it paid for it self.

Forced_Firebird

09-26-2010, 06:55 PM

I have been using a Willems dual power programmer for a few years. Paid $50 for it when I sold the MS that I never got hooked up lol, and it came with a datalog cable for GM cars.

That's good to know that the .bins .bins and definitions will work with the 153, when you have different call numbers on the GM chips, they can use the same definition, but have to be compatible with the ECM number. Looks like I will be loading the 173 .xdf in, seems as that tune is far more developed :D The Ostrichh 2.0 was $175 and upgraded to TunerPRO v5 just yesterday...

haven't been doing too much just yet, really want to hook up the WB before going crazy.

u3b3rg33k

09-26-2010, 07:11 PM

E30Rott

09-26-2010, 07:23 PM

I'm rather surprised that you can get away with running that long of a straight ribbon cable. I would think you'd run into interference issues rather easily without using twisted pair ribbon cable (I'm thinking along the lines of 80 wire ATA cables, or twisted pair U320 cables). Any comment? I'm somewhat curious.

With my experience with the ostrich 2.0 and that cable, is that, yes, you do occassionally run into interference. Scared the hell out of me the first time it happened, as the engine just cut out on a pull. It'd be nice to find a shielded alternative.

Forced_Firebird

09-26-2010, 07:26 PM

I have an amplified chip extender along with the emulator cable.

omniscient

09-27-2010, 04:10 PM

I don't know how long the cable that came with mine was.. I think 16" but I've never had problems with it.

Forced_Firebird

09-27-2010, 04:40 PM

Is it normal for the address tracing to jump around so much? I was driving in 4th gear and keeping the RPM's consistent and the blocks were jumping quite a bit, just trying to get a feel for the equipment. With GM logging, we can actually display a dashboard with up to 6 guages including o2 voltage, RPM, TPS volts, IAC volts (all sensors) and they don't jump around like this, but that's through an ALDL cable, never used an emulator on one. Probably need to hook this up to a GM ECM and see if it acts the same lol.

Hoping to have a few mins between working on stuff tonight to get the WB temporarily hooked up, but don;t know how much it's going to help, having a break-up issue specifically at 4k rpm. Changed the distributor last night and it seemed to get better, was going to change the plugs but the store only had the kind that the tips didn't come off to fit the BMW wires :( got the correct ones today and am going to gap them a little tighter than stock.

omniscient

09-27-2010, 05:18 PM

You can only watch one address at a time I believe.. as far as I know at least. What I do is watch the 1x8 AFM map and get it dialed in closely. Then I watch the 1x32 map to make sure it's following correctly. After that I go to the fuel tables.

So if there's a problem at 4k RPM I check the 1x8 see what cell it's in then adjust it if needed. Then I check the 1x32 to see where it's at. Then I go to the fuel table.

Explain to me what it's doing specifically when you say it's jumping around. If it's jumping around a lot it's more than likely a problem with the signal from the AFM or the MAF.

Forced_Firebird

09-27-2010, 06:31 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi_cQODTO8c

You see in this example, the tracing is staying in just a few blocks at idle, mine is jumping around throughout the RPM range, not staying in the idle speed area. I wonder if my CPS is going bad?

When it's breaking up, it sounds like it's being rev-limited vis spark, so it's a spark issue I am having, just having trouble chasing it.

Yeah, you can only toggle one map at a time on the hit tracing.

EDIT: Changed the plugs last night with some used ones out of a parts car, they are platinum and were in excellent shape, replaced them with new ones tonight and the plugs are reading slight lean as I suspected (dyno runs showed close to 15afr's across the board at WOT o.0), but no pepper on them, so probably could use a bit of spark advance - even more so with the low compression 885 head on ETA block combo.

u3b3rg33k

09-27-2010, 08:11 PM

With my experience with the ostrich 2.0 and that cable, is that, yes, you do occassionally run into interference. Scared the hell out of me the first time it happened, as the engine just cut out on a pull. It'd be nice to find a shielded alternative.

Take a look at the U320 scsi ribbon cable:
http://cfnewsads.thomasnet.com/images/large/019/19425.jpg

see how they twist the wire in the ribbon? You can use the same trick, you just need to figure out which pairs to twist.

omniscient

09-27-2010, 08:34 PM

Are you sure you are using the right .xdf for the .bin file? Is your TPS working correctly?

Forced_Firebird

09-27-2010, 08:45 PM

Are you sure you are using the right .xdf for the .bin file? Is your TPS working correctly?

It happens even with the stock ECU back in, it's something physical. Have to do work, don't have much time to play with my own ride :(

Going to do a smoke test on it and check the TPS when I have a minute.

Oh, and I loaded the 173 .xdf and .bin into the Ostrich today with the 153 DME and the car wouldn't start.

everlast

09-27-2010, 11:20 PM

I don't know this from that with DME chipping, but I do know that the 153 and 173 chips are not cross-compatibile, so I don't see how the mapping would be the same. Just my two cents.

gstuning

09-28-2010, 05:11 AM

It happens even with the stock ECU back in, it's something physical. Have to do work, don't have much time to play with my own ride :(

Going to do a smoke test on it and check the TPS when I have a minute.

Oh, and I loaded the 173 .xdf and .bin into the Ostrich today with the 153 DME and the car wouldn't start.

Then the 153 isn´t the same motronic version exactly as the 173.

chris325ix

09-28-2010, 07:55 AM

yeah, don't think you can use 173 software with a 153. 153 is motronic 1.1 and 173 is motronic 1.3. Electrically they are compatible, but the software is certainly different.

Forced_Firebird

10-24-2010, 09:51 AM

I hooked up the home made lambda controller last night. Got the idle nice and pretty :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySXr5uX0Osk

omniscient

10-24-2010, 12:52 PM

Forced_Firebird

10-24-2010, 05:51 PM

I set up the Volvo MAF the other day and it maxes out around 5k RPM at WOT. Under mid-throttle acceleration I can hit redline. This MAF is crap. I think a VW VR6 MAF would be perfect for the M20 N/A. The Porsche 803 is perfect for boost I belive it's capacity is around 350HP.

Good info since I have a 173 setup for a MAF conversion that we tried on the turbo m20 and would max out and go dead rich around 4k RPM, worse with any load/boost.

omniscient

10-25-2010, 10:19 AM

Yeah it's basically the same thing as adjusting the tension of a stock AFM to reach 5v upon pedal mashing. There's a lot more to learn about MAF conversions with the DME. I think the guy who went public with the write ups on how to do a MAF conversion hasn't really done any actual testing with his different set ups because the MAF he suggested is way too small and his maps were horrible. A Corrodo VR6 MAF would be ideal for an N/A M20. With the Porsche MAF and still being N/A I lost a lot of table resolution and the DME would stumble between the low throttle and WOT maps because there wasn't enough load on the MAF to go into the high throttle maps. I could have scaled the load in the maps to get some of the resolution back but it's not worth the hassle at the moment. With the Porsche MAF in it's stock 3" housing I think that no load scaling would be necessary for a boosted application.. We'll find out in a few weeks.

E30orDie

10-25-2010, 10:30 AM

:( i wish this stuff was easier to understand- hell i thought ms1 was too complicated... I fail at this whole ecu thing.... Wish there was someone or something that made it a lot more simplistic.

Forced_Firebird

10-25-2010, 05:54 PM

:( i wish this stuff was easier to understand- hell i thought ms1 was too complicated... I fail at this whole ecu thing.... Wish there was someone or something that made it a lot more simplistic.

Naw, the problem is that the Motronic is SO SIMPLE, people look past it. It's like dominating X-box, then going back to Atari. It's all hex editing (think 2-d maps).

omniscient

10-25-2010, 06:12 PM

It's just like tuning any other system TunerPro even sets the binary data up in a user interface like you would see in MS.

E30orDie

10-25-2010, 07:03 PM

If it were as simple as, D/L this, transfer these files via a card burner or w/e (I don't know what I am talking about here) then open the ecu up or chip burner- and change the ign settings and any other extra's ya can through MS then why hasn't it been done?

I understand you say its been over looked- but others have obviously messed with it, and are still continuing too... so once again I'm missing the ease part- I would love to see this going into action. I can see the benefit of having the essential factory settings and thats very nice...

all I am saying is what about us computer dumbies? there are machine shop's for people who can't machine.... and yes, there are tuning/dyno shops... but here in the sticks/woods/rural nothing area... we don't have this, unless you're american muscle- via Stang, or Camaro.

This leaves me with only MS as an option, and that blows as far as I am concerned- I loved the power my car made, I'd like to make more this time, and be more reliable.... but hell.... I hate to think that i would have been better off doing a 5.0 fox body :( and nothing against them.... I just happen to like my e30

Or am I/we non-computer junkies screwed?

Forced_Firebird

10-25-2010, 11:01 PM

Well we will have some chips available soon for at least the 2.7i swaps. There's a reason everyone who does the 2.7i swap get's ~130 something HP lol. There's way more to be had in the setup after watching AFR's and having an understanding of the way spark advance works, the tables are all wrong. A friend of mine has a stock 2.5 vert that we will check out as well, everything backed with dyno pulls - I think it's crazy people pay hundreds of dollars for a PROM chip :(

It's really not as complicated as it seems, specially with the Motronic. Using the TPS as an example, unlike other cars, the BMW has no, part and full throttle, whereas most others' use a stepper motor with infinitely variable input based on voltage. Then you have idle control, stepper vs pulse width blah blah.

It's not that difficult to figure out, it's easier to understand while you are doing it, rather than reading it IMO. To start out, just get the emulator and load the stock .bin file on it and enjoy driving just like you would any other day. On the other hand then you can sit in the passenger seat and see what the driver is doing compared to what the ECU is thinking with the emulator. Observation is very important when tuning ANY system. Remember, people have been hacking PROM's the 80's, plenty of info, just have to look since no one cares about it anymore.

Finally, another reason that the info is hard to find is that many tuners don;t want you to know what's what. This is for fun, if someone gains from the info then good deal. I have posted all my GM conversions on public forums, some ask for us to make them a swap harness even though detailed instructions were posted.

E30orDie

10-26-2010, 12:30 AM

It's just sad- you can go to TN (2different places) build any turbo, n/a whatever mustang or chevy, 300$ 2hrs later you car is tuned for break in, you come back and they recheck ur shit and give you another tune- it's just a pitty that we don't gave access to this. Which obviously there isn't that demand. But....

Say a guy like you can get it straight forward enough that you can sell a set or kit to program yours with maybe an already setup programing, that you can d/l on to the motronic, and edit spark from there by driving and tuning. You just sell a n/a kit a boosted kit with a Porsche Maf basic conseverative map, and leave it open for us to plug in the injectors and and tune via MT.

Tuning my MS wasn't so bad- I didn't have any detonation when I tore my motor down after 7kmiles- the block I had bought and not rebuilt gave out #6. But as far as the res on my ms1 it blew balls- I couldn't ever get the rpm as smooth as I wanted at a crusing speed. It's hard too when it's jumping 800 to 1400 to 2000 to 2700 to 3200 and so on..Maybe I'm miss understanding or looking at it wrong. But this is why I ask questions so that maybe other noobs can understand it better- could you not just get it to run on a vtps and a Porsche Maf have that basic program to sell with a chip burner where I or other tunners can go on there laptop and monitor shit and make simple changes in fuel and spark. I realize this obviously takes time, but I believe if proven simple and user friendly while being more reliable- you could easily over rule a MS market- I think a lot of kids are scared by it- hell I was and had lots of f*n help... Tuning wasn't so bad, but the whole setting up and wiring killed me :(

320guy

10-26-2010, 05:23 AM

Hey ive been using tunerpro aswell but I have some questions.

Say the bin only goes to 6000rpm, and you raise rev limit to 7500, what does it do for ignition timing? The timing map dosent go that far....

Also when using data tracing (ostrich II), sometimes it seems the ecu is reading info from a different map, but I cant see that it is reading from idle or any other map. (timing map).

gstuning

10-26-2010, 07:02 AM

you have to select each map you want to view using the "A", then it will only display from that if the ecu is reading from it at that time.

if you do not change the scale in the bin itself (tunerpro can not to it) then it will just copy the ignition value onwards

omniscient

10-26-2010, 06:57 PM

I've lived in the woods my whole life man you just have to be resourceful. I've always done my own fabrication and tuning because I just don't understand how people can pay so much money for horsepower. It's cheaper for me to learn to weld, how to tune and just learn as much as I can. I now work in a performance shop and I see people spending upwards of nine thousand dollars for a turbo kit with installation. it's absurd.

Anywhoo.. The European car crowd is very familiar with the term "chip tune". You spend way too much money on a chip or a flash that is set up specifically for x injectors, x turbo, x cams, x exhaust and so on because there is no open tuning interface for the Motronic ECUs like there is for Honda, Nissan, DSM, Subaru and so on. TunerPro is basically a universal .bin editor. You can tune a Honda with Hondata and you can tune one with TunerPro. In essence they are the same program but Hondata has a friendly user interface with all the binary data and formulas transformed into terms that anybody can understand. Learning to use TunerPro is like building a MS board for the first time. You think what the fuck have I gotten myself into then you spend a bunch of time reading, learning more as you go until you finally have a tuned boosted car.

MAF stuff now.

My co-worker gave me a bunch of different VW and Audi MAFs to try out. I want to try the Audi A4 MAF. I mean they're factory turbo and oodles of 350whp ones come into work all the time using the stock MAF. I know 350 isn't a lot to some people but really it is a lot. I plan on a nice soft 300hp for the turbo car I'm building.

E30orDie

10-26-2010, 08:18 PM

. You can tune a Honda with Hondata and you can tune one with TunerPro. In essence they are the same program but Hondata has a friendly user interface with all the binary data and formulas transformed into terms that anybody can understand. .

Its a pitta to think, that I'd have to have a honda, to have something user friendly. This is very upsetting to me.

Learning to use TunerPro is like building a MS board for the first time. You think what the fuck have I gotten myself into then you spend a bunch of time reading, learning more as you go until you finally have a tuned boosted car

Building the MS board was beyond my skill level. Running TS wasn't so bad. There is a lot too it, not denying that... lots of stuff is extra too, or for a more fine tuning (enrichments and such). Not so much required to have it running without a TPS... You can get it going well enough with a MAP if you're not a perfectionist, or someone who doesn't FULLY understand it. It does take time.

I tuned my own motor going down the road. no dyno's. WB and few other meters... I know what a lean misfire sounds like, and I know what a rich loaded down motor sounds and smells like. I know what detonation sounds like as well too. I check plugs to let me know what exactly is going on in a motor, at whatever rpm you kill it at. When I tore my block down, I didn't have any "sand" on my pistons nor head. For the tuning I did, for my first time on EFI and boost, I was VERY please.... its just a shame I had to tear it down from a bad block I had bought because i tried to save money.

Building a chevy block wouldn't be a problem with me- we have build a few 383's and such mixed and match chevy parts- because they are cheap and very basic. I just happen to have a love for e30's- I've had one 3 years prior to ever THINKING of looking up some forum. I had a bentley my father gave me, and support from him.

Now after a year of reading on here, talking to great people, building a turbo setup, raising 9 kinds of hell, waxing hondas and v8's and loving every minute of it. Now that I have gone through all of this I wish that my ecu was better, but hell.... I can't understand anything past the the point I got too...

I think its a shame we can't have the luxury a fucking honda has or some chevy or ford does with their tuning ease.... I've seen guys just plug up there lil honda palm pilots and just change shit around on their EFI system... Tuning a 850 avenger carb or a speed demon on a 502 marine motor is a walk in the park compared to setting up values and %'s and files this and that- but, of course.... its not efi and yes thats a big difference. It just kills me we can't have access to a "honda" type ecu- it makes me sick to even think they have that over us.

I'm sorry to keep you guys off topic- Just thought maybe there was some hope for us computer illiterate people who love their e30's.

omniscient

10-26-2010, 09:29 PM

One day there may be. We just have to wait for that one guy that wants to make money selling the program instead of just selling chip tunes.

E30orDie

10-26-2010, 09:37 PM

(crosses fingers)

Forced_Firebird

10-31-2010, 03:28 PM

Well got s lot of seat time with my friend visiting from Indiana who is an awesome GM tuner. We did some out-loud thinking and test drives. Still can't nail partial throttle at lower RPM's to pull good, but from about 3k on up, it's like a whole new car. Smoothed out the curves added a little timing and adjusted the fuel up/down where needed.

Haven't hear any detonation, running 93 octane. What kind of max advance has anyone else been seeing?

E30orDie

10-31-2010, 05:27 PM

Chris will probably post up a good N/a timing map. Have you thought the of trying to adapt a GM ecu to a m20? Or is it to simple of a motor to run the GM ecu without half the sensors?

Forced_Firebird

10-31-2010, 05:45 PM

The plan is to use a GM ECM eventually, leaving the Motronic in place so I can not only log, but run the m20 off it if I please. Well, we have the easy part of WOT pretty much tuned except for the very lowest off-idle tip-in. This thing is moving out now :D

I went through the maps posted in the Megasquirt Map thread to get an idea of what the m20 likes, gust ignored anything over 100kpa. Max timing is in the 40's and the 2.7i likes a smooth curve over the big dip the stock map had around 4000-4500 RPM - it was so retarded in that area, the car would fall on it's face, then take off at 4500 - now it pulls solid from 2500-6500 with a couple more spots to work out.

E30orDie

10-31-2010, 06:02 PM

Wish ya get on the ball with the GM ecu conversation :p Or a PnP MAF motronic for boost and 580cc injectors >_< hahaha

I know it take time, and lots of understanding- i don't have either going for me :(

omniscient

11-03-2010, 08:49 AM

I found a two pin threaded IAT sensor with identical values to the sensor that comes in the AFM. It works without modification to the .bin file. It's a Bosch from a 1996 VW.

Forced_Firebird

11-03-2010, 04:26 PM

we used the sensor from the AFM on the MAF conversion we did, but that's even better since you don't have to hack up an AFM to get it :D

The display on my home made wideband shorted yesterday, so my buddy is loaning me one to get this car straightened out.

Also had a chance to check out some other "brand-name" chips, but have a feeling they are using their own .xdf since using the stock .xdf mad the tables come out all funny.

What's the deal with all the timing retard in the 4000rpm range? Even all the .bin posts on ecup.com has the same retardation in that area. I read somewhere it's supposed to be for "shift anticipation" but messed with the values in there and the car runs much better.

omniscient

11-03-2010, 06:03 PM

Can you send me the .bins? I'd love to look at them I'll sort out the XDF and share with you! I was looking at the timing maps earlier and I noticed that too. Stock .bin files are like that to this day. Aftermarket companies just advance the timing a it and add fuel to compensate and charge a lot of money. Really that's all a performance chip or re-flash is. "91 octane tunes".

I'm very excited about using the VW sensor I feel it's my contribution to the cause. I'm building a 4" turbo intake with the Audi A4 MAF and a bung for the VW IAT sensor.

whodwho

11-03-2010, 08:14 PM

There is a big torque spike there and timing is typically reduced, is about 27* in the WOT table by chance?

omniscient

11-03-2010, 08:46 PM

Yeah between 24-27 depending on which map.

whodwho

11-03-2010, 09:08 PM

That seems to be where we get a bit knock limited, I had tried upwards of 30 and the knock sensor was picking up knock till I lowered it to 27.

omniscient

11-03-2010, 09:41 PM

The stock ignition maps are super conservative. There's turbo maps in the sticky running more timing than the stock NA bin. Kinda sheds a little light on how some people manage to keep their cars together for a bit with just a FMU.

Forced_Firebird

11-03-2010, 10:30 PM

Yeah, I looked at the .bins from a few different ECU's and they are extremely conservative. I would suspect some of the knock picked up is due to the loud m20. What knock sensor did you use, and how did you set the sensitivity?

As far as the FMU idea, when the ECU says to shut off the injectors, I don't care what the pressure is at that time, if the injector is electrically closed, there's no fuel going in lol, on the other hand, I have seen a Dodge 318 in a truck make 680whp using a 12:1FMU and 18psig of boost, go ahead and calc that fuel pressure, and imagine what would happen when a fuel line burst under load and full boost haha.

whodwho

11-04-2010, 08:39 AM

I am using Boris's KnockSense, there are MANY posts about it being hard to setup. Not sure if different sensors are more sensitive or something but I was able to get it setup and dialed in and works surprisingly well after hearing all the issues.

I thought mechanical noise was going to be an issue as well but I can rev in the same RPM areas it detects knock under load with less a little less load and it wont trip it. So I believe it can be dialed in and not get excessive false positive readings from mechanical noise.

I did a bit of trials with the sensitivity to see that I could get it not to trip and then to trip when I could audibly hear it and then a bit further. I can see in the logs consistency of detection and response to corrections. As a test I threw regular in it and see detection of additional knocking in the areas I would expect it(peak torque).

I am only using it as a safety device if I was to get a bad tank of gas or boost spike and not to count on it with an overly aggressive timing map.

omniscient

11-04-2010, 06:54 PM

Is the knocksense device used for standalone EMS only or can it be used externally like a knock light?

whodwho

11-04-2010, 07:04 PM

There is one available as a LED only or with a LED and an EMS trigger:

http://www.viatrack.ca/

Forced_Firebird

11-07-2010, 09:22 AM

Well borrowed a wbo2 stand alone from a friend to get the fueling dialed in. WOW! Is all I can say. The 2.7i seems to like it a little leaner than I'm used to, got the AFR nailed at 12.8 WOT and mid 14's for idle and cruise. Gave it a couple more degrees of advance on the whole map (up from what we already had) and this car scoots now - still conservative compared to the turbo maps in the sticky, though. Can't wait to get back to the dyno and see what the tuning did to gather numbers. While there I will flash the stock tune for one of the pulls to show a back-to-back comparison. :D

omniscient

11-07-2010, 10:26 AM

Sweet dude! And this is with the Volvo MAF? The one I pulled from the junkyard maxed out around 5k RPM I don't get it.

everlast

11-07-2010, 10:52 AM

Look forward to seeing the a/b comparison!

Forced_Firebird

11-07-2010, 11:51 AM

No this is with the stock AFM. Going to take the AFPR out that's adjusted to 65psi (~3.5bar) and put in 19lb injectors, then re-tune it. At 65psi the 15#inj should be about 19, but don't want issues with the raised pressure and stock pump.

The MAF conversion is all setup from the race car and have a base 19# tune to start with, but wanted the actual 19# inj in before messing with it.

omniscient

11-07-2010, 02:55 PM

The public MAF tune is garbage. I'm not too sure the guy that made the thread about it even tested it much.

Forced_Firebird

11-07-2010, 03:39 PM

Mind sharing another base tune? As long as the setup works, I can figure it out, but so much easier to start with a base that at least runs OK. That public tune worked decent, but not once we were under boost.

EDIT: Also would you PM me some contact info? I don't mind sharing what I've got with 'ya if you don't mind the same.

george graves

11-07-2010, 03:40 PM

subscribed.

Forced_Firebird

11-07-2010, 04:48 PM

Quick vid of current AFR's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8wV37pw7fw

Tinkerputzer

11-07-2010, 05:01 PM

Your cluster looks like a christmas tree.

Very interested to see you next visit to the dyno!

Forced_Firebird

11-07-2010, 05:10 PM

LOL, tell me about it. The stupid brake wear sensors are stuck, never put in the resistor for the oil change light, and I can't figure out what the ABS is all about. They don;t bother me since I know my car well ;)

omniscient

11-08-2010, 05:39 PM

I just tried using 42lb injectors with the 2.5" Volvo MAF housing and it's being a bitch. I might have to alter the injector constant more than the AFM table.

Forced_Firebird

11-08-2010, 06:14 PM

You see the AFR's in the previous video and I have never touched the AFM maps.

omniscient

11-08-2010, 06:26 PM

How does Motronic calculate cranking pulse?

Forced_Firebird

11-08-2010, 07:04 PM

Not sure what you mean, are you talking about the reluctor wheel and relation to spark?

chris325ix

11-08-2010, 10:27 PM

How does Motronic calculate cranking pulse?

it's based on coolant temp.

omniscient

11-10-2010, 07:17 PM

I'm trying to find a possible cranking map in the binary. So far I've gotten the car to run on 42lb injectors, just idling though. I haven't had to alter anything regarding cranking pulse. Just kinda weird to me.

DmcL

11-10-2010, 08:58 PM

i stumbled onto 2 motronic tuning threads today.. kick ass!

ive also done the volvo MAF conversion and none of the tunes i got from ecuproject worked properly, one of them gave me the 2 step effect at 2.5-3k revs like someone said on a previous page. i did start off with 19lb injectors tho so dunno if any of the tunes would have worked on stock injectors or not. anyway.. ive tuned the crap out of it and have so many variations for the volvo MAF and 19lb injectors i forget whats different from one to the next lol. alot were fiddling about with ignition/fuel maps to see what felt good, experimenting, etc.

if anyone needs stuff to get their volvo MAF and 19lb injectors setup up and running i can help.. about 50 times over.. lol

the volvo MAF does work but i think the tunes on ecuproject are a little off, i had to do some tweaking to get it all working ok. put that on the back burner to tune a performance chip for someone wanting to run E36 0280150415 injectors so thats how my cars set up atm. not sure if im going to go back to the MAF again now and see about tuning that for these E36 injectors or throw the MAF on the back burner and try to get a MAP sensor in and working. want to get it working with a MAP sensor so i can see how that compares to running a MAF and also to the stock AFM.

also think we all should do a bit of group file sharing, dont think everyone will have the the same stuff as the next guy so it would probably give everyone more files to look at and compare with ones u already have to give more insight into tuning M20's and what changes to what maps suit certain modifications. i notice so many maps that are identical on so many files and it just makes me want to play with those maps even more and see what i can do with them.. it drives me nuts, i want to know exactly how everything works lol

for anyone wanting to play with GM map sensors i found this page in google which has voltage to load to kpa for the 1, 2 and 3 bar GM sensors as well as pinouts. hopefully with reference to this ill get the car running on a 1 bar MAP sensor soon-ish and see what its like.

http://www.robietherobot.com/storm/mapsensor.htm

DmcL

11-11-2010, 11:10 AM

what happened to the love in this thread? nobody posting today lol

i was thinking.. if everyone wanted to do some sort of group file sharing without putting stuff up so the whole world can get it i could throw up a password protected area on my site or a password protected subforum and only give out the PW to those on here wanting to share and learn stuff. it would prevent any would be "download everything to sell chips on ebay with a £10 chip burner" types from getting to the files and keep it strictly for those of us that want to further the cause.

Forced_Firebird

11-11-2010, 03:36 PM

Well, there's not only the issue of people just downloading the files and selling them as their own, but you will have guys using the files on a car that they are not intended for and people will end up with pitted bearings, or oil-washed cylinders.

I don't know if I care to sell the chips all that much, if I do, they will be cheap enough. We have been using the setup to tune locals' and my own car.

As far as the 42lb injectors, did you adjust the injector constant, or are you still changing the AFM map? We tried changing the AFM map a little on the last car we did, instead of just tuning the tables and it seemed to help on the tip-in, even though his car didn't have the tip in issue like I did.

Well, after cleaning the injectors in the ultrasonic cleaner, tried firing them and a few of them didn't work. Gonna have to go back to the junk yard and see bout getting some more shorties.

DmcL

11-11-2010, 05:02 PM

well if someone is stupid enough to run a file someone says is for 30lb injectors on their stock injectors its only their own fault for not having a brain lol

i sell a few chips here and there but i dont go jacking the price up like so many others do. if they wanted the car to be live mapped or have a mile long list of modifications thats where the moneys at. theres only so many ways u can tune a file for standard to mild modifications (the usual I/H/E stuff).

where sharing info would come in handy for people like u, me and omniscient, etc. is seeing what other people find works on different setups so when u have a car with a similar spec to work with its less of a guessing game and eventually becomes a no brainer to tune files for XXX and YYY mods. the problem is everyone paranoid the next guy is gonna jack their stuff and run.

what do u mean by tip-in? initially stepping on the throttle? could try messing with the accel enrichment map. thats another one ive never seen tuned, check those files i sent u, accel enrichment is the same on all 173 files. hell its even the same on a file ive got here for 7-8psi with 24lb injectors.

Forced_Firebird

11-11-2010, 05:44 PM

My car bogs under 2k, rich, then feels like a shot of nitrous at 4k with the file I sent you. That was preliminary tuning, but the emu/WB hasn't been in the car since and the weather has gotten a lot cooler.

Tip in is first throttle stab, but again, the issue only is present with lower RPM's. I am in the middle of swapping out the diff in my car back to the 2.93lsd, the 4.10 was just too much for the TQ (plus I am sick of shiftin 3x by 50mph lol). I put an ad in the classifieds for trade, really want a 3.45, but now I know the tune is going to be off and the tip in will be worse, but the good news is I will burn a stock chip and remove the adjustable regulator, at least then the car will be back to where it was in the vid in sig (plus better exhaust, so more lean, though :()

EDIT: We sell local street tunes for $75, I'm sure chips/engine combos we dyno will fetch a little more, but the intention is to show guys that you can have a decent setup with all stock BMW parts. After exhaust is straightened out, headers built, I want to have a stock cam re-ground to my specs. Have been using Dynomation5 for over a year now, next will be sticking the head on our flow bench to see what's what.

chris325ix

11-11-2010, 06:15 PM

DmcL

11-11-2010, 06:51 PM

@ chris, yea its a bit crazy.. tons of info on aftermarket stuff but everyone hoardes the motronic info.

@ FF, one of the tunes i was experimenting with for my MAF conversion was bogging like that.. it was ages ago tho and i ended up starting over on another file so i never figured it out. once ur back at stock fuel pressure load up a stock file (if u got a 173 id stick that in and pull the 153 out). copy your ignition and fuel maps, idle or whatever else u want to transfer over from the 153 file into a fresh 173 file and save it then load it up to compare with the stock 173 file ur starting with and take it from there.

on the tip-in problem is it only at WOT or also at part throttle? ive got a couple ideas on what might be causing it. ive got an XDF for the e/eta but no stock bins to look at yet but im wondering if ignition advance/fuelling is maybe different around the problem area due to the shape of the pistons, i know the e/eta was meant to rev lower and make power/torque lower down so maybe it pulls air better low down? if that was the case then ignition might need to be retarded a bit instead of advanced in that area like u would think?

must see if i can find an e/eta file to look at.

Forced_Firebird

11-11-2010, 07:05 PM

I have an eta ECU and chip. Once I get the exhaust and diff in with a little more free time, I'll tear it apart,copy the chip and post it.

Chris, the sticky is where I got the idea for the ignition maps for my Motronic ;)

It's the same crapola, just how you access the info is a little different, well, that and I didn't have to buy anything that wasn't needed for what we already do here, or do any wiring etc.

I am very interested to see this MAP conversion work out, once that's done, all we are lacking is a true datalog. It would be cool if someone could configure TPrt v5 to see guages like we can on the GM stuff - even if it wasn't logging in a sense, the guy in the passenger seat with his face glued to the laptop could at least see where the TPS/CTS/IAT is, only glancing at the WB lol.

DmcL

11-11-2010, 07:15 PM

that would be cool..

ill check the ECU tuning sites im on and see if i can find an e/eta file to check out.

one thing ive been wondering.. motronic has maps outside of the WOT and PT maps that also alter timing in certain circumstances such as RPM and Temp based ignition addition. MS probably has similar but the values in those maps might be totally different which would mean a 42 for WOT ignition on the MS screenie might actually be a 37 on the motronic WOT map once u factor in ignition addition, etc.

for the rich bogging lower down.. have u tried backing off accel enrichment in those RPM's to see if it leans out and pulls more like it should?

omniscient

11-11-2010, 07:27 PM

I used the AFM map and the fuel map. Basically altering the AFM table makes the engine think it's seeing less air so it lowers the amount of fuel being injected. Then in the fuel maps the scalars across the top are load, which is a percentage of the injector constant stored in the binary data. The car has no idea what size injectors are being used the injectors are matched to the air flow of the engine. So the first column is 5% load, or 5% of the constant injector pulse. The cells in the fuel table are correction factors, you can essentially add or subtract time within the injector pulse. A value of 128 is basically no correction factor, adding increases fuel pulse width, subtracting is the opposite. So if you make the engine think it's seeing less air by subtracting from the AFM table then lowering the correction factor in the idle table I think it's feasible to run up to 600cc injectors.

By the way this may not be the exact science of how it works but it's practical and makes sense.

DmcL

11-11-2010, 07:27 PM

just found a 027 bin on the tunerpro site, gonna have a look at it now.
http://www.tunerpro.net/download/bins/BMW/bmw_027.bin

the XDF is here also if u want to have a look at yourself.
http://www.tunerpro.net/download/bindefs/BMW/BMW_027_DME_E30_4K.xdf

im assuming the bin and XDF will work together, if not ill have to load the bin in a hex editor and set the map addresses in the XDF to show the maps in that particular file properly. silly how BMW changed map addresses for various software numbers, just means not all 173 files will show with the commonly available 173 XDF, probably same thing for every other motronic ECU as well..

omniscient

11-11-2010, 07:31 PM

I think it's kinda funy the guys tuning motronic are afraid to share, but guys tuning standalone ECUs post their maps and settings all over the internet. :p

I'd be interested in hacking the stock computer if I didn't already have something way better. Makes me sorta wish I had a totally stock car to play with..

I hear ya. I'm trying to share as much info as I can I just don't want to give out incorrect information. There's way too much of that available already.

DmcL

11-11-2010, 07:35 PM

BINGO!

just looked at the e/eta stock ignition WOT map and like i was thinking it retards timing down to 2000rpm. id bet money thats your problem right there.. pull back ignition running up to 2k like the WOT ignition map on the 027 file then ramp it back up where u had it after 2k and i bet your bogging issues will be a thing of the past.

btw if i got it right u better positive rep me lol :D

Forced_Firebird

11-11-2010, 07:42 PM

HAHA! I should give you guys rep just for posting in my thread anyways. Last few times I posted findings, I get about 3 responses.

Actually we have a 2.7i here we are tuning ATM, and only difference is he has a sedan and is running the stock FP/INJ. I need to go back to stock inj/FP and just run his chip, specially now that I am putting the same gear he has back in rofl. We have his timing ~2* less across the board with a 2.93 vs my 4.10.

DmcL

11-11-2010, 08:00 PM

are u still running the 153 in yours? im working on ur file editing the lower RPM areas on the ignition maps. i noticed the 027's main ignition map has the same amount of RPM tabs under each % of load so to get the lower RPM portions of the 027 ignition map it just a matter of loading up tunerpro twice with the 027 bin/xdf in one and the 153 bin/xdf in the other and transfer the data over. columns/rows are the opposite way around tho so no copy and paste.

not sure how to work out where to rob the low rev/high PT values from tho as the 027's part throttle ignition map is the same size as the 153/173's low part throttle ignition map so id need to know what % of load the high part throttle map starts at.

im not touching fuel maps so u will probably need to re-adjust those wherever the ignition has been changed from ur original file but if it pulls and doesnt bog then u really only need to trim fuelling to suit those areas and see how far u can advance from 2k RPM's or below and u should be sorted. ill email the file to u when im done messing with it.

Forced_Firebird

11-11-2010, 08:15 PM

Thanks. Yeah I am going to start over once my biz partner finishes up the sedan 2.7i, going to put my 173 in my car with the 2.93 and much better exhaust system. It's still too loud for my liking, but that thread will be updated later. Gonna just start with his .bin and see what we got. We are touching 212 of the fualing maps in some areas in his car (equates to over 80%), looks like the stock 2.5's need 17lb inj and the 2.7i's are going to need 19lb to leave room for improvements.

DmcL

11-11-2010, 08:27 PM

thats about what i was thinking for injector sizing lol

i ran 19lb on my 2.5 and even with BBTB and MAF i had to trim fuelling back a good bit and i had to trim back temperature enrichment to stop it running like ass on cold start/warm up. the E36 0280150415's seem ideally sized for the 2.5 and theyre 4 pintle.

now that we have an idea whats causing the bogging problem u have id hold off on changing anything and first try the edited version ill send u shortly. if that feels better then bump up fuel maps back to stock-ish numbers and drop fuel pressure and fine tune AFR via wideband. no sense in totally throwing away what u have come up with so far unless its totally not workable. when u switch over to a 173 u can just load up 2 instances of tunerpro and copy the values over.. hell ill even do that for u while im at it here lol

shouldnt be much longer, just tweaking the high part throttle map so the tail end of it is close to the values of the WOT map, i find running the same values at the end of the low PT and the start of the high PT makes things a little smoother just driving around, likewise for matching the end of the high PT map to the WOT map, gives it a more seemless feel driving around with various amounts of throttle as u do on the road.

cliff notes for anyone reading up:
it looks like strokers with stock e/eta pistons need ignition timing retarding down progressively to about 10 degrees around 2000rpm from the beginning of the WOT and possibly both part throttle maps compared to using 325i pistons. the equivalent section of a stock low comp 325i WOT map would be around 20-25 degrees at 2000rpm and higher on a performance tune. dished pistons must fill the cylinders better in the low revs than stock 325i pistons so ignition has to be retarded in comparison to a 325i or stroker with 325i pistons tune.

Forced_Firebird

11-12-2010, 01:04 AM

Yeah well IDK WTF. Put my 173 in using the starter bin for the other 2.7i and it sucked fanny. Put the 153 in, loaded the bin, car wouldn't start. Got it running, gave up for the night.

Put the fueling and ignition all over the place, think there may be a physical problem with the car. Exhaust sound and looks much better, though :/

gath

11-12-2010, 01:54 AM

Hi, hats off to all you participating in this thread, I've been following this thread from th begining and I really can't commend you guys enough for the great venture .. unfortunately 'am illetrate when it comes to this field and it sounds like jargon to me but if I had any know how I would surely chip in..
Now if any one comes up with a good tune for a MAF on stock motor 173 ecu i'd be very ready to promote this venture purchase a chip..

DmcL

11-12-2010, 07:11 AM

i can do MAF conversions and chips for the 173 just fine but the chip has to be tuned for whatever specific MAF is being used. i use a volvo MAF since most of the guess work was done by someone already for tuning the relevant map to get the MAF working on the car. im currently looking into possible MAP sensor conversions.

DmcL

11-12-2010, 07:35 AM

this might help anyone tuning for larger injectors. its certainly helped me out a few times. covers ballpark changes to injector lag vs battery voltage map, injector constants map and some other stuff.

http://support.moates.net/2010/02/10/theory-an-injector-model/

i havent actually tried it yet but i think we should be able to adjust for larger injectors without having to touch the fuel maps or the AFM maps. ill test this theory out by running a stock tune with my E36 17lb-ish injectors and see how rich it runs on my wideband then ill calculate the change for injector constants and see if it leans out to normal AFR's or not. im already running the exact values from an M50's injector lag vs battery voltage map, just happens both the M20 and M50 files share the same size of lag vs voltage map so it was a very handy copy and paste affair with no guesswork.

ive actually saved quite alot of articles like that that ive come across on the net covering anything from tuning for injector size to calculators for various things and general tuning principles/guidelines, etc, etc. if anyone wants i can stick the whole folder of articles into a zip and send it.. not sure how big it would be once zipped, the actual folder itself is about 27mb.

E30orDie

11-12-2010, 08:26 AM

I have no say in this thread either, but I do watch it everyday.... There is some REAL good information in here, and I believe more too come....

Just wanted to say thanks, and keep up the work.

DmcL

11-12-2010, 10:09 AM

well it looks like u can tune for injector size by altering the injector constants 1x3 map instead of messing with the AFM maps. seems to work quite well on the E36 0280150415 injectors im using. i calculated the change in constant and tried it out after first running the car a little with stock constants and running rich. it leaned out and also leaned out part and full throttle so it looks like only the injector constants map needs to be adjusted to scale fuelling up or down overall. was pulling 13.5-ish at WOT coming thru the mid revs and then 12.5-ish in the top end, felt very strong and i havent even touched any fuel maps.

you will need this XDF file as the 173 XDF files out there dont have the proper injector constant map. i modified this XDF and added the injector constant 1x3 map.
http://www.mediafire.com/?esq1qqpj23gh4tt

i also raided the scrapyard while i was out and got 2 GM 1 bar MAP sensors and plugs/bit of wiring and also a toyota 1 bar MAP sensor with connector and some wiring. grabbed a random IAT sensor from a ford fiesta and its connector/wiring and some misc bosch 2 pin connectors male and female. im going to check the resistance of the ford IAT sensor vs a stock E30's and see if it could be used or not. the MAP sensors are all 5v so shouldnt need to mod the ECU like with the volvo MAF conversion. ive got specs and voltage output vs pressure for the GM MAP sensors but no info on the toyota sensor so ill google it and see if i can find anything, hoping one of them will have similar outputs to the stock AFM which will make tuning a hell of alot easier.

DmcL

11-12-2010, 11:48 AM

well the ford fiesta IAT sensor probably wont be usable. at whatever my room temp is here i was getting about 25k ohms from the ford sensor, with the stock M20 sensor i was gettign about 270k ohms. cant really tell if they scale the same if i blow hot or cold on them, if they do i could pop a resistor in the wiring for the ford fiesta sensor. probably wont match up close enough to be used for anything tho unless maybe in conjunction with one of the MAP sensors but ill have to wire both temp sensors to both MAP sensors and see what sort of overall output/range is on the various combinations of MAP sensor and IAT sensor.

as for the GM and Denso MAP sensors. with no vacuum applied the GM sensor reads 4.7v and the Denso sensor reads 3.55v. i dont have a vacuum pump or gauge in the house (have a gauge in the car tho) so i cant tell what amount of vacuum equates to what output but when testing both MAP sensors (output of one sensor to positive of multimeter, output of other sensor to negative of multimeter) i did notice that as vacuum increases the difference in output voltage becomes smaller and smaller and eventually output of one overtakes the other and the meter goes a little into the negatives. ill need to check output of the stock AFM and compare it to both MAP sensors, whichever looks like its the closest to the AFM output ill try to use.. hell i could even just try to use both and see which one i find easier to adapt the tune to work with.

the GM MAP sensor is a 1 bar 039 sensor, the Denso MAP sensor is part number (denso# 100798-2754, toyota# 89420-20250) if anyone is wondering.

///ARINUTS...

11-12-2010, 12:37 PM

I have no say in this thread either, but I do watch it everyday.... There is some REAL good information in here, and I believe more too come....

Just wanted to say thanks, and keep up the work.

Same Here , but I am so Lost , I have no clue how to tune. thats why i have stayed with a FMU so Long. I need hands on experience.

But in the future, I would hope to find one of you guys near NYC to play with my motronic.

DmcL

11-12-2010, 12:50 PM

nobody helped me per say.. i just downloaded tunerpro and started off with what 173 files i could find on the net, bought the moates ostrich 2.0 emulator and started off by loading up a few brand name performance files i found on the net and then driving the car to feel the difference. u can compare the file or map ur working on with up to 4 other files in a graph. by doing that, comparing, trying and driving (also reading anything and everything about ECU tuning theories, motronic specifically) i started to learn what does what. then i bought a wideband and kept at and started experimenting with other maps that temd to have the same values in them regardless of if the file is a stock tune or a performance one and now im where i am today... totally self taught.

btw for forced_firebird and omniscient, have u guys seen this site yet?

http://www.motronic.ws/

its based more towards porsche motronic but its not that far off BMW motronic and there are some areas where the 325i/173 is directly used as examples.

Forced_Firebird

11-12-2010, 02:33 PM

Yeah adjusting the inj constant is how you change injector sizes, well that's what we do to GM's anyways. That way your maps stay the same, should have the same effect.

I have no idea what's going on with my car at the moment, but I suspect a bad AFM. I have an 027 AFM I may try, and am ordering a new coolant sensor along with rear main (to fix my last leak), maybe even a new crank position. Last night we loaded all kinds of bins on the 153 and 173 and the car just wouldn't run right. Only other change made was the diff and exhaust, but neither should have effected it much - car sometimes wouldn't even start (AFR's at 000 like the FP quit) much like the AFM was disconnected.

Going to run some tests after the car cools such as the resistance in the CTS, IAT, TPS etc. Wish I had an o-scope so I could also diagnose the CPS.

DmcL

11-12-2010, 03:05 PM

check something didnt get unplugged or chafed. check the CPS wire down behind the fan. ive seen them chew the wire and cause all sorts of problems and no starts.

i put a link to a 173 xdf i edited to add the injector constant 1x3 map, forgot it wasnt on the current 173 xdf files in circulation around the net. some have a scalar at the top labelled injector constant with a ? but that doesnt work.

stick the 027 AFM in if the CPS wire is ok and nothing else looks obviously wrong. if its the AFM then it should fire up on the 027 and run just a little lean before u bump up fuelling if needed.

just found a vid of a porsche AFM filmed from inside the airbox, basically the same as our E30's AFM, seems about as quick to react as the hit tracing in tunerpro, doesnt really look like as much of an obstruction as u might think seeing it action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KASscLNHhhI

Forced_Firebird

11-12-2010, 04:08 PM

Yeah I know the routines lol, I have a small shop. Just suck when my own car has an issue, customers don't like seeing my car hog up the lift/shop :/

DmcL

11-12-2010, 04:20 PM

i need a shop.. hell even a garage lol

DmcL

11-12-2010, 06:57 PM

well.. its all peiced together and wired up, aint pretty but i can tidy it up if it works even as good as the MAF did.

http://s1.postimage.org/8rjoaxgr3/DSC00381.jpg

should be fun trying to actually get it working on the car tho. i think the stock AFM outputs 0-5v and the MAP sensor basically does the opposite and outputs 5-0v. im hoping i can basically just flip the AFM 1x8 map around and tweak it from there but if it goes that smoothly id be surprised.. last resort could be get/make some sort of inverter circuit that will convert the output to read from 0-5v but im hoping i can do that in the AFM 1x8 or if necessary flipping both AFM maps.

if the weather isnt crap tomorrow ill put it in and wire it up in series with the AFM but ill leave the IAT and MAP output disconnected and run my multimeter on the MAP output and see what sort of numbers it hits at WOT, idle and cruising before i dive right in and unplug the AFM and connect up the MAP output and IAT sensor. if all goes well i could have my AFM deleted tomorrow for a proper trial run over a few days with some tweaking/tuning to see what it compares like to the MAF conversion.

omniscient

11-12-2010, 07:03 PM

How much control does the injector constant map have over the injectors? Like if you had stock injectors and lowered the value from 128 to 74? I wish I had my car here to try it out. Someone should do a test to see if the three cells in the map pertain to idle, mid and WOT.

Someone on here tried a MAP conversion before. The problem he encountered was that MAP sensors have a linear voltage curve where MAFs and AFMs don't. It's not a huge deal but makes tuning for the MAP a little harder.

DmcL

11-12-2010, 07:28 PM

constants map has a hell of alot of control over fuelling in all areas, if u dropped the value with stock injectors it would run leaner. from what i found (on the E36 injectors im using anyway, dunno if its the same for 19lb or bigger) i dont have to touch the AFM 1x8 map, just drop the constants according to how much bigger the injectors are and then fine tune it for near ideal AFR before doing anything to the fuel maps. might also have to increase injector dead time depending on the injectors tho.. dont seem to need to with the E36 injectors but maybe thats because theyre newer or maybe just not way bigger than stock.

i havent tried changing the constants individually, not much need really.. if i remember to ill check that out tomorrow.

MAF has a curve but i thought the AFM was closer to a MAP sensor than MAF in the way it outputs. i also noticed the MAP sensor outputs backwards.. ie- nearly 5v with no vacuum/load and voltage drops as vacuum/load increases. dont know if there is a workable way to tune for that or if the output would have to be flipped.

weather permitting ill find out how easy/hard it will be tomorrow.

heres how to work out a ballpark figure for the injector constants according to what size of injectors u want to put in.. scroll down to "tuning for injector flow"

http://support.moates.net/2010/02/10/theory-an-injector-model/

omniscient

11-12-2010, 07:33 PM

Forced_Firebird

11-12-2010, 07:33 PM

I have done it on the Motronic. Adjusting the inj constant changes the entire fuel map that same ratio. So, actually if you wanted more fuel, you could trick the ECU into thinking the inj were smaller, therefore delivering more fuel, but then you run into the problem of taking a chance on the inj going static. As I stated earlier, with a good tune, a stock m20 is seeing 212's in the blocks equaling about 80% duty cycle. More than that, you run the risk of the injectors just staying open. Upping the fuel pressure works the same way.

I totally forgot I have TONS of inj that are 21.4lb that come off the GM motors that I rape the heads off of for my aluminum head swap kits for 3.4 f-bodies. They are rated at 55psi, converting that to our fuel pressure, they will be slightly over 19lb. They have a 2 pintle design, but a revised one and these are from 2004-2006 cars. Only draw back is that the connectors are different, but going to the new "skinny" style inj opens up a lot more doors. They are a direct physical fit and can handle over 80% duty, whereas there are even newer inj that can handle into the 90 percentile.

omniscient

11-12-2010, 07:38 PM

I wish I could just mess with this stuff right now. So increasing the constant cells increasing fuel delivery and subtracting from the cells is just the opposite, like most ECUs?

DmcL

11-12-2010, 07:52 PM

That's because engines idle in vacuum and approach one atmosphere towards full load. You have to apply a vacuum pump to a MAP sensor then decrease the vacuum to monitor the voltage curve. MAP sensors have a crossing over point so one atmosphere is around the middle of the voltage curve on most 1bar sensors. Vacuum is usually low voltage, zero inches of vacuum is usually around 3 volts and it will max around 4.5volts at 14.7psig.

i totally forgout about that lol

tired, gimme a break :D

ive got 2 different sensors here to play with anyway.. the GM sensor is probably the one to use tho because it goes up to basically 5v. the toyota/denso sensor i also picked up today reads 3.55v with no vac applied whereas the GM sensor reads 4.7v and since the AFM 1x8 is 0-5v i dunno if the toyota/denso sensor would be any use.

Forced_Firebird

11-12-2010, 08:09 PM

That's because engines idle in vacuum and approach one atmosphere towards full load. You have to apply a vacuum pump to a MAP sensor then decrease the vacuum to monitor the voltage curve. MAP sensors have a crossing over point so one atmosphere is around the middle of the voltage curve on most 1bar sensors. Vacuum is usually low voltage, zero inches of vacuum is usually around 3 volts and it will max around 4.5volts at 14.7psig.

Actually you are describing a 2bar MAP. Since an NA engine doesn't see over one atmosphere, they read from vacuum to 1bar (normal atmosphere). I have a GM 3bar MAP, it can read from vacuum to ~30psi guage pressure. Some people re-scale single bar MAPs to think it's reading boost, but really isn't if that makes sense.

DmcL

11-12-2010, 08:17 PM

well if i get it running decently on this 1 bar sensor then all id need to do to upgrade if i ever get around to sticking a turbo on would be swap in a 2 bars sensor and re-tune. im guessing to re-tune for a 2 bar sensor from a 1 bar i owuld basically just have to condense the 1 bar sensors 8 values in the AFM 1x8 down to like 4 cells and tune the last 4 of the cells for tons of fuelling since the voltages that would get the ECU reading the last 4 cells would most likely be when the sensor has positive pressure/boost applied.

omniscient

11-12-2010, 11:17 PM

omniscient

11-12-2010, 11:23 PM

So, in WINOLS, the injector constant map headers are 5,128,255. It has to do with something and I wish I could mess with it right now. There's an identical map at 4EF9.

Forced_Firebird

11-12-2010, 11:32 PM

How do you like the winOLS compared to TunerPRO, if you ever tried?

omniscient

11-12-2010, 11:54 PM

I use WINOLS to find maps then I just add them into tunerpro. WINOLS is a great tool if you buy it. None of the good options are available in the free version.

DmcL

11-13-2010, 05:30 AM

ive got WinOLS demo and ive tried it out a few times but im not sure if i like it or not..

someone posted up a french program thats alot more simple to use. it doesnt auto search like WinOLS but i think its easier to find maps when u know what ur looking for.

http://www.ecuconnections.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=119

DmcL

11-13-2010, 11:06 AM

well i managed to get it to hold an idle and start up on the MAP and IAT sensors but at light throttle up to about 35-40% of the gas pedals travel it wont hold a steady engine speed and hunts up and down. it will rev up and if i jab the gas as the revs are dropping it will rev back up fine but constalt throttle at lower amounts of pedal travel make the engine hunt up/down the revs a bit. took a little bit of time to even get it idling steady, that was hunting also but it would clear up for a second or 2 then hunt again, clear up, hunt, etc. i think ive got far enough to see that it should work with more tweaking and head scratching.

mmm.. naked TB elbow..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iolOdAQs6sE

Forced_Firebird

11-13-2010, 11:57 AM

lol at the thumbs up.

Is that really a Fram sticker on your car?!?! I hate the Fram oil filters, they seem to leak often.

Yeah that surging seems strange, my car does that when I put the stock o2 back in. I want to weld in another o2 bung and try tuning with the nbo2 and wbo2 simultaneously.

We are swapping in the Malibu injectors today, tracked down my issue as far as the slow tip in and why I wasn't reading the idle maps. My TPS was totally malfunctioning, so put a new one in. The reason that bin I sent you looked so strange was that the low part throttle map was doubling as my idle :(

Did you have to reverse the map for the map sensor? (haha that sounds funny)

DmcL

11-13-2010, 12:15 PM

nah didnt have to reverse it. yea fram stickers, no fram products tho lol

ive had similar idle issues. re-adjusted my TPS and that fixed it. was reading the LPT map at idle with the MAP sensor tho.

think my fuel pressure gauge sender is a goner also, gauge stays pegged on 100psi just like the oil pressure gauge which isnt connected up yet.

how about a happy mappy?
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/6616/happymappy.jpg

lol

EDIT: i think i might have 1 possible idea of why the revs were hunting.. at the beginning of the vid u can see i basically just tee'd the MAP sensor into the existing spaghetti ball of vac lines. maybe the hunting is because of the 10 miles worth of vac line? think ill try it again tomorrow and have only the MAP sensor and FPR connected up or even just the MAP sensor because when its hunting u can see a rise/fall in vacuum on the gauge tho thats normal if the engines revving up/down but shouldnt be happening when im holding the throttle pedal in one position. ive also got a little pierburg one way valve sort of thing that was in some vac lines i also pulled from some cars yesterday. it stops instant flow in one direction but allows flow in the other but if a vacuum is put on it and maintained for any length of time it lets the pressure out. might see if sticking that in does anything.. it was in a vac line to an EGR valve on the car i pulled it off of.

EDIT #2: another idea just popped into my head.. i wonder if the vac line being closer to 2 of the intake runners could cause enough of a pressure surge to make this happen? maybe ill stick that pierburg valve between the sensor and manifold and see if it smooths it out at all..

Forced_Firebird

11-13-2010, 12:33 PM

That could be the issue. All the GM stuff I work on has a dedicated MAP line, but should still work, perhaps you have a small vacuum leak somewhere as that will also make it hunt.

I still think that the valley in the middle of the 2.5 maps are strange, but as I mentioned earlier, the 2.5 seems to like it, whereas the 2.7i doesn't. I can't wait to get over to the shop and swap inj and get back to tuning, this is worse than a drug addiction rofl.

I have several MAP sensors laying around, even have a couple that don't require a vac line, but have a bushing that plugs directly into a drilled hole - even have a 3bar MAP I was going to use on my turbo Firebird (running modified code mask $59 and WB input for the GM ECM). You have to remember that even though a sensor that reads more than one bar still ranges from ~.5-4.5v

DmcL

11-13-2010, 12:51 PM

the dip in advance on the 2.5 is due to the shape of the combustion chamber and piston tops. i forget where i read it but its something BMW called something like wortekrugel or something like that.. basically means the air is sucked in and spiralled to increase cylinder filling, it works the best in the mid range which is why ignition is pulled back there. compare the AA and Dinan files i sent u and notice the only point that really needs to remain lower than the rest is 4520-4800, whether u fade it down to and back up from there or have those big dips on either side affects the feel of the car pulling up the revs at WOT. i personally like running those 2 big dipped areas roughly halfway between the AA and Dinan files. by fading down to the middle point of the dip like the Dinan file the car doesnt really feel like it got a second wind up top, running the AA or half and half doesnt give u that same feeling. i havent had a chance to run both on a dyno and compare dyno graphs tho so i dunno which would give the most power coming into and back out of that dipped area.

if u got a dyno and get around to it id love to see the difference between the 2 on paper.

i figure once i get it running good on the 1 bar sensor if i want to turbo and go to a 2 bar sensor ill just have to average the 4 values in the AFM 1x8 and put them in the first 4 cells for the tune for a 2 bar sensor then just figure out what i need to do with the last 4 cells when the sensor is in positive pressure.

DmcL

11-13-2010, 01:18 PM

firing order on the M20 is 1-5-3-6-2-4 and the vac fitting is closest to the runners of 1 and 6, assuming we start from cylinder 1, the sensor probably isnt quick enough to respond to the pulse from cylinder 6 and 5-3-2-4 are not as close to the vac fitting so maybe its outputting X from the strong pulse off cylinder 1 then the output starts to fall, misses the big pulse from 6 since it cant act that quick, continues falling then gets hit with a big pulse off cylinder 1 again?

u can hear when i rev it that it still sounds a little off and the hunting seems to get a little quicker with more revs up to a point then just sounds off a little above that point.

i might stick my multimeter on the MAP sensor signal output and see if voltage peaks and drops along with the hunting. or i could be lazy and assume thats the problem and stick that little pierburg valve in (which it is already since i have the whole MAP setup sitting beside me) lol

chris325ix

11-13-2010, 01:34 PM

find one of the old style vac fittings used on M20B25s with 2 ports - one normally goes to the FPR, the other is normally capped off. Might have been used on eta's or something. A friend happened to have one on his stock DD, I asked him if he'd swap since he didn't need both ports so I got it free.

http://www.325ix.com/pics/2010/11-06-2010/P1060981s.jpg

look closely and you'll see what I mean.

As far as the timing dip, it's also because at peak torque cylinder pressures are highest and your knock threshold is lowest. I found pretty much the same RPM band (4800-5000 on my engine) needed to be retarded. I don't see any torque drop in those areas as a result of retarding. I also go back up aggressively starting at 5200rpm.

A lot of people I've noticed don't have that dip in their timing map at WOT. It either means they are pinging at peak torque, or they aren't nearly advanced enough everywhere else.

DmcL

11-13-2010, 01:47 PM

maybe its a knock risk on high comp B25's? ive run basically a flat peak and not noticed any knock. there isnt anything up there tho on my low comp B25. Dinans M20 tune gradually drops to 30 degrees at 4520rpm and gradually rises back up from 4800rpm but the 4500rpm and 4800rpm points are both 30 degrees on both the Dinan and Active Auto files ive seen. running both WOT maps back to back neither really seems any faster than the other but the feel of the engine between about 3000rpm and 5000rpm is different. would be interesting to see a dyno comparison of both tunes side by side.

funny enough i was thinking about one of those fittings with 2 vac nipples but there arent any near me that i know of, not a single E30 and any of the local-ish scrapyards. ill try that pierburg valve in the line to the MAP sensor so whether its something to do with intake runner pulses or the other vac lines the valve will stop any instant reversals or big drops in pressure between the valve and the MAP sensor. i dont think it would have any real negative effect on lift off or clutching in to change gear because the valve doesnt stay closed if pressure drops and remains low. worst case it might stick an extra half a second on whatever cell it was reading before pressure dropped, maybe even put on a nice flame show behind the car on occasion if fuel map values stick for a split second on WOT gearchange lol

btw i take it ur not running stock motronic with that COP conversion.. and u got the same wiper blades as me lol

Forced_Firebird

11-13-2010, 01:48 PM

I dropped that dip in my car and it loved it, probably due to the swirl relation to my dished pistons. I tried upping that area on a stock 2.5 and as there was more advance, the afr's got richer (aka detonation), found 27* max in that area on a 2.5 is more than enough, yet with the 2.7i, high 30's/low 40's is the "sweet spot".

No, it wasn't the ETA's that got that vac port (well, any I have seen), seems they came on the early Motronic 1.3 (and some 1.0) cars as that's where I saw them when gathering parts for my swap.

DmcL

11-13-2010, 01:56 PM

was it a high comp 2.5 u did? what RPM points did u stick at 27? lowest part of the Dinan tune is 4520rpm and 4800rpm and both are at 30. they wouldnt sell a chip thats going to have u repeatedly detonating a little before and after those 2 points. i stick by my belief that from like 3000rpm onwards on the low comp M20 u can advance timing to the point u feel power is dropping before getting any potential detonation.

Forced_Firebird

11-13-2010, 02:22 PM

US spec 1988 2.5l stock, 2.5l with a 272 cam, and 2 2.7i's have been tuned so far (well mine is a work in progress since I keep pulling the equip for others' lol)

DmcL

11-13-2010, 02:29 PM

oh well thats why.. its got a cam in it, u should have said earlier lol

look at that file i sent with Alpina B3 ignition/fuel maps, the B3 was a 2.7 but it had a cam and i think a pina exhaust manifold and maybe head work. as breathing ability increases ignition timing has to be retarded. compare the B3 file to a stock 173 and u will see its actually retarded below stock in places.

Forced_Firebird

11-13-2010, 02:50 PM

No, maybe I wasn't clear. Same night we tuned a 272 2.5 manual car and an auto bone-stock 2.5.

The auto didn't like a lot of advance, and we already knew the cammed car wouldn't.

DmcL

11-13-2010, 02:59 PM

ah.. was the auto pre-facelift? not sure what years the high comp engines ran up to but if it was pre-facelift it might have been one of the high comp motors.

Forced_Firebird

11-13-2010, 03:10 PM

It's an 88 with metal bumpers and large taillights.

Man, before changing the inj in my car, we tried starting over with the tune and I still have an issue where it feels like a clogged cat or something. Runs like a raped ape after 3500rpm. Sucks because the other 2.7i we tuned runs good all around :(

I checked all the sensors last night, everything is up to par. perhaps weak spark? Changed all the plugs already, probably need to check the resistance on the wires and I have a spare good coil....

EDI: now that I think about it, forgot to check the coolant sensor, but the fueling is spot on ;/

omniscient

11-13-2010, 03:38 PM

How much more advance do the tuned maps run between 4200 and 5200rpm in the WOT map compared to the stock .bin which dips down to 15*? I've never seen a naturally aspirated motor run so little timing around peak torque.

DmcL

11-13-2010, 04:42 PM

its the flow characteristics of the M20B25.. the high comp B25 might be a little different, not sure if it got the same piston/conbustion chamber design.

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/147/wotignition.jpg

@ forced firebird, it had to have been a high comp M20.. look at the amount of advance in green. all the stuff above is low comp M20. i think ive got a high comp M20 stock file around here somewhere.. ill see if i can dit ig out and compare it to a stock low comp file. u can identify between high/low comp by the plaque on the back of the slam panel above the back of the headlight. low comp 2.5 will have one set of digits, high comp 2.5 will have another set of digits but if the engines been swapped in who knows.. i think the same digits are on the engine itself somewhere just dont remember where. generally tho early (up to 88 i think) E30 M20 is referred to as high comp and late (89 on) is low comp. there was a thread about how to tell the difference between high and low comp on e30zone.net but i cant find it for the life of me. i can check the plaque in my 89 325i and give u the digits for the low comp engine if u want tho.

During the two eras of E30s (the 'pre' and 'post' facelift eras) the M20 came in two variants, the older is commonly known as the "High Compression" and newer as the "lower compression". There wasn't too much difference in the engines other than compression ratios, radiators and different fittings for various components in the engine bay.

chris325ix

11-13-2010, 04:48 PM

all B25s have the same 885 head casting, the only difference would be the dished/domed piston, where the high-comp B25 would have less dish and more dome (although not much as the change in CR was small).

at 10:1 with the 885 head I'm using a similarly shaped curve. it's most like the dinan curve, except the maximum retard is at 4800-5000.

it's funny that the Dinan curve retards so much after peak HP. That's the opposite of what I would do. if you think about it, at higher RPM there is less time for the mixture to burn, so you need more advance so it can complete burning before the cycle is over. Retarding it there doesn't make any sense.

Forced_Firebird

11-13-2010, 04:49 PM

Not sure. He said a 91 motor was swapped in, can never tell with the e30's what's been done to them unless you are lucky and find one totally unmolested - mine had a hair under 75k miles when I bought it, so the complete history is known, his clock stopped at 150k.

DmcL

11-13-2010, 04:56 PM

god only knows then lol

should be able to run up to the highest curve on the graph. maybe he had a tank ful of the worlds crappiest fuel? i dont think ive ever run on anything below 91, usually run 95.

Forced_Firebird

11-13-2010, 05:03 PM

When I said 27*, that was in that dip on your graph, where the three tunes meet.

Well, I just checked the resistance on my wires and had a couple reading high, so changed them out and the idle instantly got better. Don't understand, the wires in there are fairly new - could explain why it didn't have power below 2500rpm, but usually bad wire will be opposite.

DmcL

11-13-2010, 05:07 PM

thats 30 degrees on the graph. dont AA and Dinan chips recommend 91 octane minimum? im gonna put my money on crappy fuel.

maybe some of the wires got pinched or something?

DmcL

11-13-2010, 05:38 PM

was just googling to try and find an IAT sensor to replace the stock M20 sensor and stumbled onto bosch motorsport stuff. take a look at the response time of the cheaper sensors compared to the expensive ones... whod have thought.. i bet if someone got one of the quicker acting ones it might improve overally performance/drivability, if u wanted to blow a wad of money u could even replace the CTS sensor with a faster acting unit too, would be interesting to see what difference running a faster acting IAT and CTS.

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/language2/html/2895.htm

ive been on the bosch motorsport site before but only looked at fuel pressure regulators (also quite expensive unfortunately) and they have ones that would fit the M20.

must see what other bits and peices they have motorsport variants of.. im starting to like bosch motorsport.. well apart from the prices :(

Forced_Firebird

11-13-2010, 05:47 PM

Just got back from a test drive and I don;t know the reasoning behind it, but my car just LOVES timing. I mean you will fall over in your chair if I showed them to you. Currently at 45* up top and mid 30's just off idle with a slight dip in the middle. I think it can take 50's 0.o

DmcL

11-13-2010, 05:56 PM

has to be the bottom end ur using, dont most people use "i" pistons in their strokers? might explain it.. ive run up to about 42 at the tail end of the WOT map without problems but power dropped off coming up to 38-40. didnt have enough balls to try running anything too crazy in the lower revs.

just sent an inquiry to bosch motorsport about the NTC M12-L ambient air temp sensor, im 99.99% sure thats the one omniscient was talking about from a VW VR6. have to get a customer number tho since its direct from bosch.. suppose i can start telling people im a supplier of bosch motorsport stuff now lol

Forced_Firebird

11-13-2010, 06:07 PM

I have wholesale accounts already with Comp Cams, ARP, mandrel bend companies, Diamond Pistons, Manley Performance, Ferea Valves, Mahle Pistons, DHP tuners etc etc. That's through my salesman, but then I have accounts with machine shops (actually program the CNC's at one shop), cam re-grinders, raw material suppiers blah blah. Comes with the territory, I work on the e30's for fun and local customers. Can't wait to get this spare 885 head on the flow bench, mowahaha. I should see what my salesman can do about getting Bosch.

DmcL

11-13-2010, 06:18 PM

i need a job like urs, im doing everything out of the house ffs lol

scary thing is im all self taught.. have nothing on paper to do with cars unless u wanted to count a low-ish level engineering course i did.

Forced_Firebird

11-13-2010, 06:51 PM

I also am self taught. Have some college, but that's for Graphic Design and PASCAL programing, both obsolete due to C+ and computer graphics (we were hand drawing and doing lithographs, developing film etc) lol.

DmcL

11-13-2010, 06:56 PM

im only messing with cars in my spare time outside of normal work. cant really see and in roads to getting to the stage of even working in a place like u have lol

Forced_Firebird

11-13-2010, 07:07 PM

Yeah my shop is spare time/weekends, I have a 9-5 job and have the shop open 5-12 m-f and whatever on the weekends pending work load. I have 4 kids, wife and a cancerous mom-in-law to support at the house :/

Started about 5yrs ago making a turbo kit for my car, people liked the stuff I was doing and started buying parts, then my friend opened the CNC shop, learned CAD/CAM in several platforms (MasterCAM, SolidWorks etc) and was able to start taking on some small jobs for cars. Then mutual friend passed (also a machinist) so my bud took over his shop and didn't have room for my stuff, so I went out on a limb and rented my own place - that was over a year ago now. Since that time I have purchased the lift, flow bench, advanced PC software for designing cams, AllData, TIG welder, nice compressor etc. Right now we have 2 cars shipped from other states for us to work on, one os from Va, the other from Miss, both Camaros.

Here's an album for one of the cars, every nut/bolt has been replaced - once we get the ok to install the trans from the builder (don't want to void arr with wrong fluid etc), it will get a break in, alignment, new gears, then the it's going in my friend's paint booth...

http://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t87/forcedfirebird/Paul%20in%20VA%20mods/?start=all

The other car is an all-carbon fiber Camaro that already got the suspension/brake upgrades (well main chassis and floor pan is still stock haha), it's getting a new engine, trans, rear and one of my turbo kits. Haven't been documenting that one yet as we are still gathering parts.

DmcL

11-13-2010, 07:53 PM

badass.. thats what im trying to do. start tuning, get some stuff out and maybe get a shop and dyno at some stage.

Forced_Firebird

11-13-2010, 07:56 PM

Can't advance the timing more than 50 degrees with the definition.

Forced_Firebird

11-13-2010, 08:00 PM

badass.. thats what im trying to do. start tuning, get some stuff out and maybe get a shop and dyno at some stage.

Well you think it's baddass, but I have only put $100 in the pocket since opening the shop. It's not all balloons and rainbows.

Don't know as though there's money in tuning, but do know there's money in turn-key projects and tuning is a big part of it. I'll email you some interesting stuff we have done to keep the thread on topic.

DmcL

11-13-2010, 08:09 PM

thats normally a good thing :p

check ur email, i should start charging for this stuff lol

Forced_Firebird

11-13-2010, 08:20 PM

Well I have looked at the stuff so far, but haven't run any of it ;)

What you are doing is totally different from the way we are approaching things. Just did a 5k launch slipping the clutch just enough to stay at 4500 and up, this car freaking moves out! Now with the 2.93 back in, even though the engine has to rev back down to almost idle clutch-less shift (bad throwout or fork, waiting for rear main to swap everything) 75mph comes on fast - have to shift 1-2 at ~40mph, 2-3 at ~75mph. Running about 13.2 afr's and fattening it up gradually to redline, 15's cruising on the TPM. Need to take it on the hywy and check that cruise, but should be good finally.

omniscient

11-13-2010, 08:32 PM

Well, with the 2.5" Volvo MAF and 42# injectors I had to lower the injector constant to 10 and subtract 30 from the AFM table. With the 4" housing I shouldn't have to touch the AFM table.

Forced_Firebird

11-13-2010, 08:39 PM

We still aren't using the AFM % table.

DMCL, thanks for the code mod ;) BUT! we just found the knock on my car. We didn't hit 50*, but close. It dropped to 11.5 afr where we just fattened it up to hit 12's, so the threshold has been met. Backed t off for safety, but am anxiously awaiting the dyno day so we can run my tune, then put the car back on the rollers with stock tune flashed. Funny thing is I haven't run out of injector on mine, but also bought the top end used from the forums and may not have been stock injectors after all (the seller included 19# inj, never checked the numbers on mine).

I did shave the head and didn't compare to stock, who knows if it was shaved before and my cam timing is retarded, but tuning a car in person is totally different from trying to create scenarios and selling them on the internet.

Forced_Firebird

11-13-2010, 09:09 PM

Just had a whacked out idea to get waste spark on the Motronic.

Since the GM ICM runs off a 3x1 DIS reluctor, and the Motronic sends a signal to the coil each time to fire, wht would it take to reduce either the voltage or resistance to get the GM ICM to read that as time to fire? I know the GM system is using a crank sensor to relay a message back to the ECM, then a wire running back to the coil pack to tell it to fire, and this all happens on the previous power stroke (ie 60
* advance) so that the ECM has time to react. Kinda hard to process the actual igniton vs being calculating the previous ignition event - that gives you 60* to think about things so to speak. Also, since both engines fire on the same pattern, matching the waste spark pairs, it should work if we can use the signal sent from the motronic to fire a pair, since it's waste spark, doesn't matter if it's intake or exhaust stroke.

EDIT: And Dmcl, since you have already shown the tables can be moved to accept more than 50*, that opens new doors!

Forced_Firebird

11-13-2010, 09:55 PM

Transferred all the values to that updated big map xdf, and it bites fanny hole. Car ran, but like poop, and just heard a backfire that sounded worse than my last lean turbo detonation that crushed the rod bearings like a penny on a railroad track.

Stock definitions and modified bins is the way to go IMO, who cares if you have to watch 2 tables.

j9fd3s

11-13-2010, 09:58 PM

great thread, makes me want an E30 again!

omniscient

11-13-2010, 11:05 PM

Yeah, I had to lower the AFM table I couldn't drop the injector constant any lower.

DmcL

11-14-2010, 08:25 AM

the bigger maps files actually have some of the coding in the bin or whatever u want to call it changed. u probably missed something or u didnt transfer all map values over.

also u did notice that idle and WOT ignition maps have been combined right? too much advance at the start of the idle and WOT map in the bigger maps file could do what ur describing.

for future reference to adjust the scale of the table for increasing/decreasing peak amount of advance u right click the map in the XDF on the left and click edit "XDF parameter info" then where the check box is that says "use high range" u can either uncheck that which wil lgive a max of 255 or like i did u can change the 50 to 60. u should be able to do that with other map parameters but if they go up to 255 max already u cant go over that as the data range is 0-255 in most of the maps.

im trying to figure out if i can alter the RPM points in the WOT maps to allow tuning of ignition/fuelling above 6200 and 6300rpm since im revving out to about 6900rpm on my M20. not sure if its just a matter of changing whats in the XDF or if the coding on the bin itself would need to be modified.. havent got up to the level of making XDF files from scratch and re-coding bins yet lol

as for the GM ICM.. im guessing the GM ECU sends 2 signals to the ICM in the time the E30 ECU would send 1.. if thats the case some sort of electrical circuit might work if u can get something that basically speeds up the E30's coil signal so that it signals the ICM twice as fast as it would normally? also wouldnt it be better to have the wasted spark on the exhaust stroke than the intake stroke?

@ omniscient, maybe the XDF u were using wasnt quite right? by calculation alone your injector constants for 42lb injectors should have dropped from 128 down to about 44 or 45. im gonna say the MAF caused the extra need to drop constants and adjust the AFM 1x8. im thinking if u had the stock AFM just dropping the constants to 44-45 would probably have done it.

Forced_Firebird

11-14-2010, 08:51 AM

as for the GM ICM.. im guessing the GM ECU sends 2 signals to the ICM in the time the E30 ECU would send 1.. if thats the case some sort of electrical circuit might work if u can get something that basically speeds up the E30's coil signal so that it signals the ICM twice as fast as it would normally? also wouldnt it be better to have the wasted spark on the exhaust stroke than the intake stroke?

Waste spark fires the pair every time, so, the two cyls at TDC get spark weather or not it's the intake or exhaust stroke. The trick would be to tell it WHICH coil to fire at that moment, and actually would need the same amount of signals thinking about it. The Motronic just says "fire", not "fire coil #1, fire coil #2, fire coil #3" etc.

DmcL

11-14-2010, 09:01 AM

yea but if the GM ICM gets 2 signals to fire in the time the E30 ECU sends 1 signal then basically u would want to come up with a circuit that doubles the signal. tricky part would be seeing what cyl it fires that second signal and where in the 4 strokes. also if the second signal was when the rotor arm was between 2 contacts im not sure what way that would work.

ive often wondered how hard it would be to get E36 individual coils working. the stock motronic wouldnt have the ability to control 6 coils but im sure u could build or buy some sort of custom control box that takes a signal from the CPS and based on the firing order and CPS u could get something made up that distributes power to each of the 6 coils.

EDIT: i see what u mean now lol, GM ICM fires twice at the same time off the same signal. the problem there will be the position of the rotor arm in the distributor, it would only fire to the plug thats associated with whatever contact point in the dizzy that the rotor arm is passing. maybe fabricate some sort of custom double sided rotor arm? tho if u had a double sided rotor arm it would totally kill the need for the GM ICM and u could just upgrade to a very powerful coil that could handle firing 2 plugs at the same time.

BTW, have u played around with the ignition dwell map yet? i found that if i ran on the rich side increasing dwell by 10 across the board would burn the more rich mixture where as it wouldnt before and would los power or not even rev past a certain point. im using a lumenition MS4 coil tho and not a stock one.. i dont know how hard u could push the stock coil. ive also been wanting to experiment with dwell and vary the increase in dwell according to RPM, more dwell lower down and near stock up top, thinking it could possibly gain some low end that way depending on AFR, ignition advance and a bunch of other stuff.

Forced_Firebird

11-14-2010, 10:28 AM

You wouldn't be using the distributor any more ;)

Yes, the GM CPS wheel has 3 notches and a reference notch and takes the energy directly from the battery to fire the coil pair.

Haven't messed with the dwell, no.

DmcL

11-14-2010, 10:30 AM

ah.. whats the part number on that ICM? curious now lol

omniscient

11-14-2010, 10:57 AM

Yeah, it should have been around 44 for an injector constant. I just think that's not actually the injector constant.

Also to edit the RPM scalar of the map you do need to directly edit the binary data. It's really not that hard though. When I get back I'll find the formula.

DmcL

11-14-2010, 11:40 AM

maybe the XDF u were using wasnt good?

even if u know any links to articles about how to do it.. thats one thing thats been driving me nuts for ages.

im messing with the display of the graph for ignition/fuel WOT maps. changing the RPM points to be to scale so to speak which shows where u have the most resolution for adjustment which is up in the higher RPM's. works fine with normal 173 bins, nothings changed just how the graph is lined up.

Forced_Firebird

11-14-2010, 12:23 PM

Here's what gave me the idea...

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=100692

and here's how it relates to the GM ECM vs their HEI distributor...

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t87/forcedfirebird/Hybrid%20Build/DISinfo/DISto7730ECM.jpg

The bypass wire is just a 0-5v for timing advance, the purple and yellow wires are for the 3x trigger (only needs to fire 3x per engine revolution), need a power to ignition on and two grounds.

How does the Motronic advance the timing with the distributor having stationary contacts? I am guessing that the ECU is sending the signal directly to the coil @ 12v, so that would need to be stepped down to 5v, but the signal is there, just need to figure out how to get the reluctor part to work, or do an independent ignitor like tht link to the thread suggests.

DmcL

11-14-2010, 12:41 PM

motronic changes the specific point the spark crosses from the rotor arm to the contact, probably by telling thecoil to fire at a precise time.

im reworking the WOT and PT maps in my edited version of the 173 XDF, so far ive changed how the graph displays to show where the rpm points are for a better idea of what ur doing and in what RPM's at a glance. also worked out the percentage of load from the numbers at the top of the part throttle maps which gives u a better idea of how much load the engine is under in each column. ill send it over to u once ive finished playing with it. want to see how many other maps i can simplify like this.

Forced_Firebird

11-14-2010, 12:50 PM

I wonder if that's why we are capped at 50* advance, the width of the rotor contact is only so wide.

DmcL

11-14-2010, 01:03 PM

i doubt it.. id say its just whoever made the XDF since u really wouldnt need to ever go over 50 degrees.

Forced_Firebird

11-14-2010, 02:55 PM

Digging through some parts at the shop, cleaning a little and I found a ton if in ijectors. Most are the new shorty style that won't physically fit,but I did come across a set of Ford 19# (at 32psi) injectors, so I am going to stick them in the ultrasonic cleaner and test fire them to see if they are working. Hopefully at least 6 are good and will be an easier install with the proper connectors. If not, I have the harness and other injectors I can splice in.

EDIT: also found a set of Chev v6 injectors, 17# at 3bar.

DmcL

11-14-2010, 03:12 PM

id go with the 17lb chevy ones.. u should then just be able to drop injector constants down to around 116 or so to get the AFR's back to normal.

are both sets high impedance?

this 173 XDF is getting a bit more nifty now.. i had to start over tho because tunerpro froze and closed on me. im sorting out the layout and re-categorizing some of the maps on the list at the side along with what i was saying earlier about changing the graphical display to show where u have the most tuning resolution in the RPM range and changing the numbers at the top of the part throttle maps into load percentages.

Forced_Firebird

11-14-2010, 03:22 PM

The Chevy injectors will support about 170whp with our fuel pressure, the Ford injectors will support about 220whp, but should give a better spray pattern since they were designed to spray at a lower pressure (more atomization) they are all single pintle designs except for the 21# dual pintle, but they will require splicing of the harness (yet give the best spray pattern).

omniscient

11-14-2010, 03:47 PM

Tuning busted my balls all afternoon. I just can't seem to get these 42# to work out. I can get the car to run stoich if I hold the throttle down, all through the rev range but I can't get it to idle. As soon as I let off and it drops from the low part throttle map the car dies, it's so sudden that I can't follow the wideband to see why it dies.

DmcL

11-14-2010, 03:49 PM

possibly going too rich.. u try trimming back the fuel idle map?

Forced_Firebird

11-14-2010, 04:29 PM

If the injector constant is set low, yeah you might have to just subtract xx value across the entire map. When i was tuning with the 65psi and stock inj, we just used the maps and not the constant since really we could only calc the inj value.

You didn't use the scalar inj constant, did you? That didn't do anything on my car.

omniscient

11-14-2010, 04:45 PM

I need to start over from scratch. I've used the same .bin for different injectors, MAFs, housings...

Which injector constant are you talking about, the slide bar one? That didn't do anything. The constant table with three cells did something I think since I could get the car to start by lowering it to 40.

Then if i kept my foot on the throttle a bit to keep the revs up the map was okay from the start running a little lean but as soon as I let the throttle go it dies. Then I have to pull the main relay and crank the car to clean the injectors.. so it has to be rich.

Forced_Firebird

11-14-2010, 05:17 PM

Oh wow, I also found a set of Cobra 24# injectors lol. The pile is getting huge.

DmcL

11-14-2010, 05:44 PM

17lb should probably do just fine. i think if u go alot bigger u end up having to adjust other things besides just the constants.

as for that constant scalar (the "slide bar one"), right click it and delete it from the XDF then save the XDF, its not the injector constant and i dunno wtf it is, doesnt seem to change anything. i have the proper injector constant 1x3 map in my 173 XDF.

ill host this XDF im working on after i finish it today (well tonight here, its 11:50pm already lol) so u guys can download it. should have had it done by now but had to start over a while ago and i just got back from having to go sort out some dudes volvo 850 that was blowing coolant pressure out the cap. told him theres a recall on the cap he has on the car and to just refill the tank with water if it gets low on his way home.. always something lol

omniscient

11-14-2010, 06:50 PM

I started off with a fresh, stock 173 .bin. I set the constant table to 40 and the car starts and is around 16:1 through out the rev range. Since it's a MAF conversion it obviously runs lean so I upped the AFM table at 1.5 and 2.0 volts and it was smooth. As soon as I come down to like 1200RPM it's still in the low part map but it just goes really lean. I can't seem to correct it. I had it working before. It's annoying.

Forced_Firebird

11-14-2010, 07:02 PM

are you reading idle maps? I had a bad TPS in my car and was idling off the low part throttle map.

DmcL

11-14-2010, 07:11 PM

i think somethings not tuned right between the injector constants and AFM maps.

u see on the AFM voltage transfer map.. does it start at 129 and end at 236? if so try bumping all values by +10, a couple of my MAF tunes are like that. id nearly say the MAF tunes that actually work ok for me have that AFM transfer map bumped up by 10 but its been over a month since i took the MAF out to tune some files for stock AFM so i cant remember which one was the one that worked for me. try it and see anyway..

this 173 XDF kicks butt.. im about 80% done with it now just trying to work out the best way of displaying a few maps when u click the graph button. i want the graphical display to reflect the actual points labelled instead of all points being equally spaced. this should make noticing load or RPM at a glance much easier... especially glancing over at a laptop from the drivers seat :D

if i can find out how i would work out pulsewidth from the 0-255 range of decimal numbers i could also label one axis with actual pulsewidth values tho i think for a final pulsewidth u would have to take into account pulsewidth addition/subtraction from other pulsewidth related maps... but it would be a hell of alot better than just "0-255".

Forced_Firebird

11-14-2010, 07:19 PM

Can we log the emulation? I tried and TP created a file, but I can't seem to read it. Would be nice to get back to the shop and go back over the test drive rather th an trying to read it while driving. In my case, it's OK since I usually have someone who can drive the car for me, or me him.

DmcL

11-14-2010, 07:21 PM

i dont think so unfortunately..

omniscient

11-14-2010, 07:27 PM

Yeah the idle map works. As soon as it goes into the idle map it dies. I had it working the other day.. There's gotta be something I'm forgetting.

Forced_Firebird

11-14-2010, 07:29 PM

Try locking all the blocks in your idle speed map at the same value.

DmcL

11-14-2010, 07:45 PM

has to be something off between the injector constants and AFM 1x8 map i think.. at idle its usually at 1.5-2v on the AFM 1x8, try adjusting those till it holds an idle. if its uber rich maybe the temp enrichment maps need to be trimmed down. i had to trim them for my 19lb + MAF tune to stop it going way rich before warm. that was before i added the 1x3 injector constant map to the XDF file tho so might not do anything for u but worth a try.

DmcL

11-14-2010, 08:31 PM

looks like i can calculate pulsewidth for fuel maps after all.. i thought i remembered seeing one of the XDF's displaying something in milliseconds and i checked and yea so i stole the formula lol

im doubling all the fuel related maps that i can convert to pulsewidth so we will have both normal raw data and pulsewidth for each fuel related map.

omniscient

11-14-2010, 09:20 PM

I started with a fresh .bin and got the car running smoothly until I get to the 1440rpm x 14/38 load scalars then it just goes lean like 19:1. It's between 1 and 1.5 volts on the AFM map. I can adjust the fuel cells but it doesn't effect it much and if I alter the AFM table it enriches too many cells and causes the rest of that area to become super rich.

DmcL

11-14-2010, 09:23 PM

maybe try bumping the constant up and bringing the rest of the 1x8 down?

starting to go cross eyed with this XDF but it will be worth it when its done..

u3b3rg33k

11-14-2010, 09:36 PM

EDIT: i see what u mean now lol, GM ICM fires twice at the same time off the same signal. the problem there will be the position of the rotor arm in the distributor, it would only fire to the plug thats associated with whatever contact point in the dizzy that the rotor arm is passing. maybe fabricate some sort of custom double sided rotor arm? tho if u had a double sided rotor arm it would totally kill the need for the GM ICM and u could just upgrade to a very powerful coil that could handle firing 2 plugs at the same time.

Won't work. Coil packs have two secondary outputs, your "mega coil" only has one output, and electricity typically takes the path of least resistance (firing only the wrong cylinder every time, unless it's so insanely strong that it can't discharge fast enough across a single spark plug, which I doubt).

DmcL

11-14-2010, 09:46 PM

yea i thought of that about 5 mins after i posted that comment lol

wheres my moral support here people.. its nearly 4am here and this XDF is killing me :rolleyes:

im on a mission to finish it tonight tho.. well this morning technically.

DmcL

11-14-2010, 10:55 PM

i think i might have to give up on this XDF till tomorrow.. i keep either finding maps that werent in the normal 173 XDF or figuring out what previously unknown maps are.

this isnt an edited XDF anymore.. its nearly new from the ground up ffs.

it will be worth the wait tho, if i was smart id probably charge money for it.. infact i might just start doing that outside of us motronic nerds in this thread here lol

Forced_Firebird

11-14-2010, 11:16 PM

Get it right. We are geeks for being addicted to chasing electrons.

DmcL

11-14-2010, 11:22 PM

u have no idea lol

a hint is in what ive named it.. "THE ultimate 173 XDF" :D

we will have to either email it around or ill host it on my site with a password.. that should give u an idea of what to expect. ill have to verify a couple maps via hit tracing but im 99.9% sure ive worked it all out unless theres more maps i havent stumbled onto or figured out. only ones i havent figured out so far are those control constants, the max and min values and possibly the low rpm low load 7x6 all found in the "experimental" section of the 173 XDF. i think i know what the 7x6 is but havent got a clue about the max and min or those 2 control constants.. the rest of the "experimental" maps arent experimental anymore lol

DmcL

11-15-2010, 06:57 AM

finished the 173 XDF.. well for the most part.

it blows any other XDF file ive seen for any E30 ECU out of the water. have a few more things to tweak and a couple things to verify but the 173 maps are more or less all decoded and explained or labelled. it might actually be too good to circulate around the net freely tbh because once its out there nearly everyone tuning a 173 file will be using it.. if they manage to get their hands on it first :p

*awaits forced firebirds verdict*

Forced_Firebird

11-15-2010, 07:32 AM

haha. I will go over the shop and check it out on my tuning computer, scheduling dyno time right now :D

DmcL

11-15-2010, 07:55 AM

i noticed a couple little stupid things i missed last night. fixed them now, ill send u the updated version. also in all my XDF fettling i noticed M1.3 doesnt really use the IAT sensor for very much.. think theres only 2-3 maps that have an input from IAT. knowing that i might try that ford IAT sensor i pulled from the junker the other day, thought it wouldnt be of any use since the resistance is off but since IAT doesnt seem to play a huge part in anything it might work out.. or might work with a little tweaking of the maps that reference IAT, hell maybe even just stick a pull up resistor on it or something.. its a neat little IAT sensor, want to see if it can be used or not. might end up going back up to the scrapper tomorrow or even later today to grab a handfull of random IAT sensors. i was looking to use the bosch motorsport "NTC M12-L" IAT sensor but i cant find anywhere selling them. i emailed bosch motorsport who put me onto a supplier in england but they charge £25 for any sale under £100.

if u get a chance see if u cant find out if the ECU hits off the idle/decel fuel map marked with a *, that was one of the unknown maps and by pure fluke i noticed its itentical in size to the closed loop idle speed map so i figure its gotta be the accompanying fuel map. if that is the case then on a car with a free flowing exhaust u could probably raise some of the values in the higher RPM/warmer temp areas for a nice flame show out the exhaust.

havent slept yet.. some dude finally paid me for a chip at like 1am lastnight while i was messing with that XDF so i never did his chip till this morning after i was done with the XDF. im surprisingly not tired come to think of it lol

might take my super-wazoo XDF and have a play with that MAP sensor again now that ive put a check valve in the line to the MAP sensor. nifyl little valve that stops instant pressure one way but doesnt hold it and flows fully in the other direction, thinking that should give the MAP sensor a nice smooth and progressive vacuum signal. output from the MAP sensor on its own seemed to jump around alot so well see what happens now..

gstuning

11-15-2010, 08:46 AM

The IAT plays an ultimate role in the ecu, it is what tells the ecu the density of the incoming air. and without that it will not know the amount of air is actually coming in.

i.e the actual mass airflow.

this is very important in a Volume / Speed density system like the M1.3

DmcL

11-15-2010, 08:51 AM

Forced_Firebird

11-15-2010, 09:07 AM

What's that strange 47 block in the decel map, sitting there all by itself?

Looks pretty good. Got to hook the emu back up, I want to flash a stock tune at the dyno and compare to what we have so far.

Dunno, guess the guys don't want my money for dyno time, 10am and they still aren't answering the phone :(

DmcL

11-15-2010, 09:28 AM

dunno but its in all the 173 files ive seen..

sitting in the car now freezing playing with this MAP sensor, basically still doing the same thing.

omniscient

11-15-2010, 04:32 PM

true but im thinking that since there arent too many maps that reference IAT it might be possible to basically tune motronic to work with another IAT sensor. probably more hassle than its worth but im curious about what i can do for an IAT sensor outside of stealing one from an M20 AFM.

1996 Golf GTI VR6 IAT sensor. Nearly identical resistance values, identical range. It doesn't use a single resistance but a range of resistances i.e. 500-1000 ohms.

omniscient

11-15-2010, 04:34 PM

I figured out why the 42# were giving me a hard time. Too much fuel added from the stock warm up enrichment maps since it was a lot colder yesterday than the last few weeks and I moved the car forward and realized I had absolutely no gas, it died a few minutes later from an empty tank. Now it's working great.

Forced_Firebird

11-15-2010, 04:54 PM

Just got back from the dyno and ran out of injector :( Last time I took it, I had the FP up to 65psi and stock tune (was super lean even then), now that the FP is back to stock I have a feeling they are going static, or there's and issue with some of them. We kept adjusting fuel, making more power (and a nicer curve), but then on run #2 of 4, we went to back the fuel down by only reducing a couple blocks by 3 and it went dead lean in that area. Tells me that the injectors are hanging open in the upper RPMs and having them close slightly caused an issue.

Going to swap injectors finally, should have known better since we have local 2.5 car with some blocks at 215, the other 2.5i has an adjustable regulator, so we couldn't use his car as a baseline either. I just don't get why my blocks in the tables are in the 170's and running out of fuel, unless the set I bought that were supposed to be stock actually wasn't.

chris325ix

11-15-2010, 05:09 PM

how big are your injectors? it's hard to imagine a 2.7i needing huge injectors. what AFR?

Forced_Firebird

11-15-2010, 05:20 PM

Stock injectors. Doing the math, they should run out at about 170hp, but that's never right unless the injectors were flow tested. Injectors can be +/- 10%, just because they are flow matched, even, they all could flow on the high/low side. I never checked the part number on the injectors when I did the swap, who knows if they are even correct.

Either way, I have gathered up all the injectors in the shop, cleaned and tested all of them, just have to choose now. They range from 17-24# at 3bar, the 24# are single pintle, 22's are dual, 17# dual, 17# single. 22# are the newest of them all (as far as design).

The curve is so much smoother on the dyno, but for some reason is lacking in the lower RPM's

Forced_Firebird

11-15-2010, 07:04 PM

Took my inj out, OMG! What was BMW thinking? 14.6psi is only enough to support 140hp at 80% lol. Explains why the car was capped last time at 134whp, and that was at 65psi fuel pressure (approx 17lb inj).

Forced_Firebird

11-15-2010, 07:47 PM

Well only 5 of the 8 19#@32psi inj (22.1@43.5psi/3bar) are actually spraying a decent pattern, the 24#@43.5psi (aka 3bar) is spraying nice, but one pintle is in the inj more than the rest. Looks like we may change to the 21.37#@55psi, which equates to 19#@435psi (3bar), but the spray pattern on those are kinda flat. Last set of inj are 28#@62psi, so 23.4# at 3bar (43.5psi) and have an awesome two sided flat spray that will coat the two sides of the valve with a nice mist. Still have to change the connectors to the new style, but one would gather that inj made in 2008 would trump the tech of inj made in the 80's ROFL!

DmcL

11-15-2010, 08:28 PM

been busy then.. im in the same boat. got twice as many things to do as ive got time to do them lol

got alot of interest locally and also one dude in portugal about my chips, a MAF conversion and some other shiz and ive been trying to keep ontop of peoples questions and all that while also trying to find another job in a hurry. been suspended this last couple weeks and im back next monday but demoted to crappy duties.. not so much that ive been a bad boy but theres alot of cloaks and daggers crap going on at my work and im pretty sure theres a few people set on making my life as hard as possible and that will probably get worse once im back off suspension and on lesser duties because ill be around those people alot more than if i was doing my normal job. just dont get why everyone cant play nice lol

i dont get how u could have needed to go so high on fuelling even on stock injectors and stock pressure unless its a side effect of the crazy amounts of advance ur running and the free-er flowing exhaust? my WOT fuelling is in the 120-130's, granted on E36 4 pintle injectors but they arent huge compared to stock injectors. think they worked out at like 16 or 16.5lb/hr at 3 bar and ive got a BBTB.. FWIW ive got a stock 2 pipe system with only the middle silencer between the downpipes and my scorpion backbox, bound to be a bit better flowing than the catted systems u guys have over there.. maybe not too far off the downpipe back system u have since ur running a single system. i do have a walbro 255lph pump so i dont know if that might have something to do with it or not? i was able to run 19lb injectors on a stock VDO pump before tho so i dunno...

Forced_Firebird

11-15-2010, 08:33 PM

Get your booty back to South FL, we have plenty to do ;)

Walbro will make a huge difference, they generally flow higher than stock, even on stock replacements. Here it was my thought to lower the FP back to stock to save the pump, but you should have seen the flame/smoke show during the last dyno pull haha. Hit 16's at 6250rpm, 3' flames and choked the whole 6 bay shop out haha.

Gonna post a sheet with the numbers omitted...

DmcL

11-15-2010, 08:43 PM

haha u hiring then? :p

i see 2 problems there.. 1 how would i get my E30 over with me and 2 id have to talk the GF into coming. i have citizenship but she doesnt so wed have to get hitched for her to stay long term.. if it goes belly up between us i probably would go back to FL. could crash with my old man in palm beach (or was that palm city, cant remember lol).

Forced_Firebird

11-15-2010, 08:47 PM

Here's the 2.7i with stock inj running 65psi through them, stock tune...

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq202/Forced_Firebird/Bimmer/BMW051.jpg

and stock inj with 3bar (43.5psi) tuned...

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq202/Forced_Firebird/Bimmer/BMW077.jpg

Can you guess where the injectors ran out? haha!

EDIT: don't try and decipher between the two, we had them change the scale mowahaha.

DmcL

11-15-2010, 09:01 PM

WHP... pffffft... lol

i need a dyno session badly..

Forced_Firebird

11-15-2010, 09:09 PM

on the rollers
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq202/Forced_Firebird/Bimmer/BMW078.jpg

pic of their shop (they have an 8sec EVO)
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq202/Forced_Firebird/Bimmer/BMW079.jpg

new injector harness
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq202/Forced_Firebird/Bimmer/BMW080.jpg

new injectors
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq202/Forced_Firebird/Bimmer/BMW081.jpg

Felt so adequate compared to some cars there, but they like us haha

DmcL

11-15-2010, 09:30 PM

i can play that game too :D

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4278/800x600projecte30.jpg
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6287/rr16.jpg

only cool people have their rear pop outs open at the dyno lol

havent got a clue what the cars putting out, was before i got ostrich and everything. had an alpina B3 chip in which retards timing below stock in some of the higher areas so it was down on peak HP even for a stock tune plus i had 19lb injectors in there too and last but not least my graphs were in ghey BHP. next run or session i do im gonna annoy them into giving me WHP/WTQ figures.

Forced_Firebird

11-15-2010, 09:39 PM

u3b3rg33k

11-16-2010, 12:57 AM

DmcL

11-16-2010, 12:13 PM

We are hiring, yes. Need a guy who doesn't mind making $500/wk tops/starting, needs to be able to weld, tune, wrench, race, drive, and oh yeah, have fun doing all this. ;)

work load is out the freaking window, have to like GM's haha.

not sure what the sort of living cost is over there but thats about the equivalent of what i make a week here after u convert $ to £. i can do all of that bar welding.. it is something ive wanted to learn for a long time tho.

DmcL

11-16-2010, 04:18 PM

updated my XDF again, made the dividers for various types of maps and dividers between normal values, pulsewidth and AFR a bit easier to see at a glance as well as noticing that my pulsewidth calculation formula for the CTS transfer map was backwards since that map is read by the ECU backwards and 0 = 100% and 255 = 0%, most or even all other fuelling related maps work by 0 = 0% and 255 = 100%. that little fix right there makes tuning enrichment a hell of alot easier if tuning off the graph for the CTS map, just pull up the pulsewidth calculated CTS transfer map and the line on the graph starts high to represent lots of enrichment and tails off low for less enrichment at higher temps.

@ forced firebird, im about to email it over to u.

@ onmiscient, PM me ur email and ill send it to u if u want it.

Jette_man

11-16-2010, 09:19 PM

I haven't been around this board in a while but I have been playing around with tunerpro and my ostrich for about a year. I have ran the volvo maf with no real gains and a bunch of headaches when the weather changed. DmcL I would like a copy of your xdf to check out. My email is Jasonjette@gmail.com
As for everyone else what xdf are you running?

omniscient

11-16-2010, 09:43 PM

If my phone could get a wifi signal at my girlfriends house I have a small video of my car running on the 42# injectors.

Forced_Firebird

11-16-2010, 09:45 PM

I like the stock updated personally.

We got the 23.4#inj@3bar running great in part throttle, rich at WOT. enough for me to get by to go to work in the morn haha,.

DmcL

11-16-2010, 10:00 PM

I like the stock updated personally.

We got the 23.4#inj@3bar running great in part throttle, rich at WOT. enough for me to get by to go to work in the morn haha,.

meh.. i would have had WOT atleast in the right AFR range :p

i think now tuning for injector size is a simple 3 step job. calculate change in injector constant, put it in and fine tune if necessary, tune WOT map and if necessary pull down the values in the CTS transfer map (on my XDF) if its too rich before warm.

I haven't been around this board in a while but I have been playing around with tunerpro and my ostrich for about a year. I have ran the volvo maf with no real gains and a bunch of headaches when the weather changed. DmcL I would like a copy of your xdf to check out. My email is Jasonjette@gmail.com
As for everyone else what xdf are you running?

probably mine lol