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View Full Version : so how strong are our blocks realy?


swartz
06-16-2004, 07:24 PM
well now that we figured out our stock rods are forged. how strong are our blocks

i hit 18psi untuned and didnt hurt anything.
matt325is has forged pistons but has been running 18psi daily for a few weeks
ive seen a few 2.7e blocks hittin 400hp on stock block
im realy wondering if u can run 15psi all day on our 2.5i block and not break pistons and rods

any opions, info or expierence let me know thanks guys

swartz
06-16-2004, 07:26 PM
i was just talking to my man at proturbo in finland and he said this...

Harri (our installer) is currently using a prototype in his car and he is using 600bhp @2,7bar (~40psi) boost.


they are trying to make a lower comp badass strong head gasket for our m20s. i wonder if that is stock internals lol i dont believe u can run 40psi even on after market forged

x628x
06-16-2004, 07:42 PM
wow 40 psi? that is a lot of boost. :)
the only engine ive seen that can hold that much boost on a stock bottom end is the 2JZ thats in the MKIV twin turbo. one time, when i had my eclipse, i was at a shop, and a black one pulled up. i talked to him and he said it was, at time time atleast, the most powerful mkiv in the world (on a stock bottom end) it dyno'd at 983rwhp at what he said was 'low boost' (42psi).

ive talked to a guy who has a turbo 325ix who says he is running 1.2bar (about 17.4 psi i believe) with stock internals. he even had a stock headgasket. i think all he had were head bolts. thats pretty impressive, but i dont know how long it will last.

swartz
06-16-2004, 07:47 PM
u saw this 325ix?

you get a ride in it or see it driving around?

89325iturbo
06-16-2004, 07:57 PM
I ran 14 psi for almost a year, on the stock bottom end. Until i took it apart to put the forged pistons in. It wasn't my daily driver, so when i took it out i was usually on it pretty hard. That was with a stock thicker head gasket. I wish i could get the MLS head gasket i want.
Swartz you hit 18psi, how did the car feel? You did this with the 60-1 turbo?

swartz
06-16-2004, 08:19 PM
ya my boost controller is a piece of crap and f'd up so i accidently hit 18psi. it was like 15psi in 1st and 18psi in 2nd. ya i have a t3/t4 60-1 4in inlet.

my first reaction was JESUS CHRIST MONKEY BALLS!!!!!
my 2nd reaction was i blew up my car.

i blew a boost tube around 5000rpms in 2nd. the car was so fast there is no way it was streetable. it was well beyond a roller coster. my dad has a 2000m5 and it was rediculiously faster then that. it was the fastest car i have ever driven and it was my own so thats cool

the mega squirt datalog says i went from stop in 1st to top of 2nd in alittle less then 3secs. which was prob around 50mph. if i can run 15psi all the time it must be insane. i would say 15psi is good for 13flat or high 12s at the track on a nice big snail.

diegom6
06-16-2004, 08:51 PM
wow!!! Wish can run soon 16 PSI wich is my goal!! I will run probably 20 PSI someday with stock internals with very reatrd spark and lots of ufel with water injection!

BTW Jason or who can now a bout your turbo, I mean wich is the difference between yours and mine? wich is larger or bigger in overall szie or any side part?

My turbo looks like don't like 7-8 crappy PSIs so need to turn up my boost soon!! lol

A side note, what size of injectors are enough or are at the limit to feed enough at 16 PSI? 24LB/H? 26LB/H? off corse with the help of a FMU!!

Thanks!

x628x
06-17-2004, 01:51 AM
u saw this 325ix?

you get a ride in it or see it driving around?

no i didnt see him, they dont have ix's around here :(
i didnt really 'talk' him face to face or anything, it was on a forum.

swartz
06-17-2004, 02:03 AM
got any links to a thread or something?

diego what are the numbers on your comphressor? how big is it?

x628x
06-17-2004, 02:07 AM
no, sorry. its the only forum i know of that only keeps posts for a week.

diegom6
06-17-2004, 11:02 AM
got any links to a thread or something?

diego what are the numbers on your comphressor? how big is it?

I'm not sure Jason, since is Turbonetcs they don't put the specs stamped on their units.

But I can tell you that the front is a like the T4 .60A/R with a compressor size (inducer) of 54mm or something like that If I can remeber well, the hot side is .63 A/R Turbonetics too

iXer
06-24-2004, 11:40 AM
I've read up on the extreme turbo machines using M20B25 engines.. and this is what I've learned, don't take it as fact:

The head of the M20B25 is prone to detonation much more so than the more symmetrically shaped modern 4-valve heads which is why people have big problems when they turn up the boost. There are tons of turbo E30 325s in Sweden and most who aim high have had head failures when they experience high cylinder pressures due to detonation. It usually helps to lower the compression but that can really kill the streetability unless you plan on dragracing the car all day. If you O-ring the head or block and use a standard head gasket while having a good engine management system that prevents a lean condition you should be able to run up to 20 psi without any problems, but one should look out for bad fuel quality.

There are some who claim that the M20B25 head is "weak" in that it deforms under high pressure where a M20B23 head would hold strong due to more material even when ported. Lots to learn here if you want the extreme.

All this said, If I wanted extreme power (400+), I would probably invest in a M50 engine to avoid the pit falls of the older M20.

diegom6
06-24-2004, 12:42 PM
I've read up on the extreme turbo machines using M20B25 engines.. and this is what I've learned, don't take it as fact:

The head of the M20B25 is prone to detonation much more so than the more symmetrically shaped modern 4-valve heads which is why people have big problems when they turn up the boost. There are tons of turbo E30 325s in Sweden and most who aim high have had head failures when they experience high cylinder pressures due to detonation. It usually helps to lower the compression but that can really kill the streetability unless you plan on dragracing the car all day. If you O-ring the head or block and use a standard head gasket while having a good engine management system that prevents a lean condition you should be able to run up to 20 psi without any problems, but one should look out for bad fuel quality.

There are some who claim that the M20B25 head is "weak" in that it deforms under high pressure where a M20B23 head would hold strong due to more material even when ported. Lots to learn here if you want the extreme.

All this said, If I wanted extreme power (400+), I would probably invest in a M50 engine to avoid the pit falls of the older M20.

That's great, I didn't know about the m20b23 head that is sopoused more stronger. I will check who can do the oringed head job, will get the high strenght bolts too.

Thing-90ix
06-26-2004, 07:24 AM
ive talked to a guy who has a turbo 325ix who says he is running 1.2bar (about 17.4 psi i believe) with stock internals. he even had a stock headgasket. i think all he had were head bolts. thats pretty impressive, but i dont know how long it will last.

Hey, that was probably me! :)

I have a ix running 1.2 bar. Engine is 100% (well 99% if the head bolts count for 1%) internaly stock.
I have the car sorted enough now to run 1/4 mile pulls. I have to find out when and where the next opportunity is :)
I am getting 1.2 bar from 2500-redline with my two day old (ecu controlled) boost valve. I initially had the redline at 7000prm, but I chickend out and dropped it to 6500rpm.
Still need to setup the anti-lag :twisted:

Nothing blown yet! Well a couple of boost pipes popped of but I fixed those. I have had the boost spike to 1.5bar max, and holy crap it takes of with that boost! 1.2bar feels slow now :(
I hope I can make it into the 12's with 1.2bar.

x628x
06-26-2004, 12:11 PM
ive talked to a guy who has a turbo 325ix who says he is running 1.2bar (about 17.4 psi i believe) with stock internals. he even had a stock headgasket. i think all he had were head bolts. thats pretty impressive, but i dont know how long it will last.

Hey, that was probably me! :)

I have a ix running 1.2 bar. Engine is 100% (well 99% if the head bolts count for 1%) internaly stock.
I have the car sorted enough now to run 1/4 mile pulls. I have to find out when and where the next opportunity is :)
I am getting 1.2 bar from 2500-redline with my two day old (ecu controlled) boost valve. I initially had the redline at 7000prm, but I chickend out and dropped it to 6500rpm.
Still need to setup the anti-lag :twisted:

Nothing blown yet! Well a couple of boost pipes popped of but I fixed those. I have had the boost spike to 1.5bar max, and holy crap it takes of with that boost! 1.2bar feels slow now :(
I hope I can make it into the 12's with 1.2bar.

yes it was you. what turbo do you have? and what size injectors do you have?

Thing-90ix
06-26-2004, 12:36 PM
yes it was you. what turbo do you have? and what size injectors do you have?

I have two small mitsu turbos. No-one has been able to identify them.
The intake is 34.8mm if I remember correctly.

I'm running 550cc p&h siemens injectors.

swartz
06-26-2004, 12:51 PM
twin turbo ix.... got anypics or any more specs? im very interested..

i want to know how much my block can take and it sounds like you are running the most boost outa anyone

x628x
06-26-2004, 04:43 PM
thing, are they TD04's?

Thing-90ix
06-26-2004, 05:19 PM
twin turbo ix.... got anypics or any more specs? im very interested..

i want to know how much my block can take and it sounds like you are running the most boost outa anyone

I don't have that many pics on the net (yet) :wink:
Here are a few with some temprary plug wires and without the boost control valve that is not attached to the intake filter box.
http://members.roadfly.com/thing/left-side.jpg
http://members.roadfly.com/thing/right-side.jpg
http://members.roadfly.com/thing/ix_new.jpg

Some specs:
-intake filter box from some ford with k&n filter
-twin small mitsu turbos (supposedly of a volvo)
-exhaust manifolds from some volvo
-2x2 1/4" -> 3" exhaust with two flow-through 3" mufflers on the way
-custom piping
-custom intercooler
-dump style bov
-valve cover breather hose to own filter (not like stock to intake)
-icv only used for extra air with anti-lag
-tps from m50 engine
-550cc p&h injectors
-fpr that goes to +pressure (stock only goes to vacuum)
-k-jetronic fuel pump in series with stock pump
-12.9 head bolts
-industrial direct acting 3/2 pneumatic/hydraulic valve for boost control
-bosch ignition modules
-three dual plug coils from some ford
-ngk 8ES plugs
-6.2kg machined stock flywheel with sasch racing pressure plate and stock clutch disk
-stock trigger wheel machined to 3-pin to work with (old) autronic
-autronic smc with anti-lag, boost control (temp and throttle position dependant), fan control, sequential injection, wasted spark direct fire ignition, MAP-based mapping

Full boost from 2500rpm to redline.

That about all I can think of now.
Ask for more info.

x628x:
They could be TD04's, though they look slightly different from pics I've seen.

kyle325
06-26-2004, 05:47 PM
Just wondering about the longevity of your setup, I guess both of the small turbos are pushing 1.2 bar or 17.6 (14.7 X 1.2= 17.6) (14.7 psi = 1 bar), is this close to their max output? Any rpm measurements on the turbos? I was thinking anythin abour 250K rpms would be kinda hard on them right?

x628x
06-26-2004, 10:46 PM
Just wondering about the longevity of your setup, I guess both of the small turbos are pushing 1.2 bar or 17.6 (14.7 X 1.2= 17.6) (14.7 psi = 1 bar), is this close to their max output? Any rpm measurements on the turbos? I was thinking anythin abour 250K rpms would be kinda hard on them right?

well depending on how small the turbos are, they are probably close to their max boost. the TD04 13g that was on my eclipse, and is also on WRX's (non STi) can support about 15-16 psi max. i dont know how much bigger/smaller his are.

white_rabbit
06-26-2004, 11:05 PM
hm.. somoene on this forum told me a while ago (around early this year) that everythin on the e30 was designed to handle 300 hp... so im assuming once you pass that you have to start changing quite a few things for obvious reasons

x628x
06-27-2004, 12:56 AM
yeah i read that somewhere once. i didnt know how true it was.

kyle325
06-27-2004, 01:33 AM
I would be happy with a 300 hp m50 engine, I would prefer a 8000 redline or even higher, I love the sound of 9000rpms! I wish I had a 911 GT3!

I was wondering if anyone knows how short you can get m50 pistons? I would liek to improve the rod ratio and also drop the compression for a nice amount of boost, say 18 psi. better rod ratio helps reduce risk of detonation, becaus the higher the ratio (longer rod) the shorter amount of time the gases are under max compression per stroke.

Thing-90ix
06-27-2004, 10:57 AM
well depending on how small the turbos are, they are probably close to their max boost. the TD04 13g that was on my eclipse, and is also on WRX's (non STi) can support about 15-16 psi max. i dont know how much bigger/smaller his are.

Turbos are mostly limited by how much air they can flow.
WRC rally cars pump out around 340hp with a 34mm restrictor. However they are running around 0.5bar between the restrictor and turbo.
So with a real-world turbo with a 34mm intake you can probably get enough air for some 250hp.

The intakes on my mitsus are 34.8mm so they should be enough for 500hp.
Now my m20b25 engine had stock 172hp so 172*x=500, x=500/172=2.9
So the turbos are (should be) good for 1.9bar boost at max power rpm (more at other rpm).
The backpressure on the exhaust side could be very high at those boostpressures though since it starts boosting from very low rpm (small turbine).

x628x
06-27-2004, 12:09 PM
yes it was you. what turbo do you have? and what size injectors do you have?

I have two small mitsu turbos. No-one has been able to identify them.
The intake is 34.8mm if I remember correctly.

I'm running 550cc p&h siemens injectors.

where did you get your injectors?

Thing-90ix
06-27-2004, 03:53 PM
where did you get your injectors?

They are "aftermarket" injectors (i.e not stock on any vehicle). I got them from a local performance shop.

diegom6
06-30-2004, 06:00 PM
twin turbo ix.... got anypics or any more specs? im very interested..

i want to know how much my block can take and it sounds like you are running the most boost outa anyone

I don't have that many pics on the net (yet) :wink:
Here are a few with some temprary plug wires and without the boost control valve that is not attached to the intake filter box.
http://members.roadfly.com/thing/left-side.jpg
http://members.roadfly.com/thing/right-side.jpg
http://members.roadfly.com/thing/ix_new.jpg

Some specs:
-intake filter box from some ford with k&n filter
-twin small mitsu turbos (supposedly of a volvo)
-exhaust manifolds from some volvo
-2x2 1/4" -> 3" exhaust with two flow-through 3" mufflers on the way
-custom piping
-custom intercooler
-dump style bov
-valve cover breather hose to own filter (not like stock to intake)
-icv only used for extra air with anti-lag
-tps from m50 engine
-550cc p&h injectors
-fpr that goes to +pressure (stock only goes to vacuum)
-k-jetronic fuel pump in series with stock pump
-12.9 head bolts
-industrial direct acting 3/2 pneumatic/hydraulic valve for boost control
-bosch ignition modules
-three dual plug coils from some ford
-ngk 8ES plugs
-6.2kg machined stock flywheel with sasch racing pressure plate and stock clutch disk
-stock trigger wheel machined to 3-pin to work with (old) autronic
-autronic smc with anti-lag, boost control (temp and throttle position dependant), fan control, sequential injection, wasted spark direct fire ignition, MAP-based mapping

Full boost from 2500rpm to redline.

That about all I can think of now.
Ask for more info.

x628x:
They could be TD04's, though they look slightly different from pics I've seen.

What ECu are you runing? and who tuned it? Like I see in the pics, could appreciate separate coils wich I wish someday I can do the same.

iXer
06-30-2004, 06:42 PM
What ECu are you runing? and who tuned it? Like I see in the pics, could appreciate separate coils wich I wish someday I can do the same.
Autronic SMC, last item on the list :roll:

swartz
06-30-2004, 06:47 PM
autronic is badass standalone

diegom6
06-30-2004, 07:35 PM
What ECu are you runing? and who tuned it? Like I see in the pics, could appreciate separate coils wich I wish someday I can do the same.
Autronic SMC, last item on the list :roll:

Yes, I saw it, but I was unsure what was Autronic, i tought it was a aux module like a Piggy back, that's why I asked :)

swartz
06-30-2004, 07:39 PM
u ever see the video and pics of that e30 turbo with the m3 engine with 900hp or whatever. its teal blue/greeen. hes running autronic and they soom in on it in the video. seems like more of a european thing then US.

diegom6
06-30-2004, 07:54 PM
u ever see the video and pics of that e30 turbo with the m3 engine with 900hp or whatever. its teal blue/greeen. hes running autronic and they soom in on it in the video. seems like more of a european thing then US.

no, never saw it, wish could see it tough

Thing-90ix
06-30-2004, 07:55 PM
autronic is actually made by a austrailian company (hence the name)

Anyway when I was shopping for ecu's the features/price ratio of the smc was unbeatable.
No idea of what has happened on the ecu front since them (except megasquirt of course)

swartz
06-30-2004, 07:59 PM
diego this car has autronic

http://w1.226.telia.com/~u22610068/main.html

diegom6
06-30-2004, 08:08 PM
diego this car has autronic

http://w1.226.telia.com/~u22610068/main.html

yes, I saw it before, Andreas BMW, butr never saw any vid of it

x628x
06-30-2004, 08:52 PM
oh yeah ive seen that. pretty badass.