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Old 06-29-2013, 01:50 PM   #1
whodwho
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Default My M20 stroker Frankenbuild

I am whodwho and I am a parts hoarder... 8^)

With a couple big builds going on recently I thought this would spark some outside the box build discussions as well and since iXer wont update his build and Austin is bailing out on his big build I also been wanting to start a couple discussion separate threads on some notes I have been collecting and have a collaboration of peoples thoughts and theories.

So I thought I would break this out of my SC thread and starting a M20 build thread

SC Thread - http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62778


I have collected a few more parts recently for the Frankenbuild... I need to stop the project creep This started out a purely an experimental budget build with parts acquired over time from other peoples dead projects so fitting for the Frankenbuild

Parts on the operating room table so far:

Bottom End
Code:
M20B25 block x2
M20B27 block
75, 81, 84, 89.6mm cranks
Clevite CB1775HK std rod bearings
Kolbenschmidt, Glyco std main bearings
All flavors of stock con rods
Pauter 140mm x-beam rods
Eagle 135mm h-beam rods
CX Racing 135mm h-beam rods
B25 short skirt pistons
Ross 85mm 29.97CH 2v pistons
JE 85mm 27.41CH FSR Forged slipper skirt 2v pistons
Raceware headstuds
ARP Head studs
ARP Main studs 
ARP Rod bolts 
NIB oil pump
BME & JE Casidiam coated pins .180 wall
Ishihara-Johnson Teflon Crank Scraper
Lightened stock flywheel, Spec stage 4 clutch
FX700 ClutchMaster twin disk clutch/Flywheel w/Tilton 300 Series HRB
Top End
Code:
Stock B25 head
Mild Ported head
.070 & .140 MLS Head Gaskets
Schrick 272, 288, CatCam 264
2 sets Febi rockers
2 sets IE HD rockers (1 set x-rayed for flaws)
Billet Skidmark rockers
SuperTech +1 intake - BMIVN-1085
SuperTech exhaust - BMEVN-1084
1 set Std IE stainless I&E valves
1 set +1 IE stainless I&E valves
2 sets of MM Beehive springs and retainers
1 Set VAC Performance springs and titanium retainers
2 adj cam gear, 1 Nuke Cam Gear
Bolt ons
Code:
Original RD E30 M20 headers
Hartge Headers
ProVent 200 breather/catch can - going to tee into the bitch tube
Mishimoto radiator
IE silicone water hose kit
Accusump oil accumulator w/electric valve
BMC CDA air cleaner
Management & Extras
Code:
MS2 PNP
MS3 PNP
Megasquirt Pro3 module based PNP 
AEM 1900u Racebox
3.5 Bar AEM MAP sensor
Q45 MAF
Autometer sensors for datalogging - 0-15 PSIG / 0-60 PSIG / 0-100 PSIG 
Ford Racing 42lbs
RC 650 injectors
Bosch PN 0280160263 3.5 bar FPR / Aeromotive A1000 FPR

Coil choices
1x Bosch 3x2 motorsport coil 
3x Bosch 1x2 motorsport coils 
6x D585 coils
AEM Twin-Fire 8 channel CDI ignition 
Honda CBR coils (same as AEM pencil coils)

Manifold choices:
Port matched B25 manifold w/63mm BBTB 
Skyline ITBs / Rowland manifolds / AA Gen2 S54 SC Plenum
RHD 40mm ITB setup w/manifolds
Custom Short runner plenum / 70mm TB 

TCD top mount manifold
666 split turbo manifold
Ebay new style

Edelbrock 2.5 air/air
RMS Stage 2 air/water aftercooler
Greddy Type-24 3" air/air

Generic Ebay 38mm
Dual Tial 38mm MVSs
2x Bosch diverter valve
HKS race BOV
Active Autowerks BOV
Tial Q 50mm BOV
Tial QR 50mm BOV
NoScoE30 billet bypass valve
Power adder choices:
Code:
Vortech Si trim SC 
Discharge OD: 2.75"(70mm)
Inlet OD: 3.5"(89)
Discharge ID: 2.38"(60.5)
Inducer Diameter: 3.1"(78.74mm)

new Holset HX35w 5660
Compressor: 7 blade 56mm/83mm? (Trim 46?)
Turbine: 12 blade 70/60mm 12cm^2 T3 housing (Trim 73 / .63 A/R or .89 A/R?)

used Holset HX40w 6064
Compressor: 6 blade 60mm/86mm (Trim 49?)
Turbine: 12-blade 76mm/64mm 16cm^2 T3 housing (Trim 71 / .83 A/R or 1.21 A/R?)

Hybrid HX35/40 6060- Parts from above
Compressor:  6 blade - 60mm/86mm 
Turbine: 70/60mm 12cm^2 T3 housing

Precision 6765HP
67/   mm compressor wheel
   /65mm, 76 trim turbine wheel
HP compressor cover .75 4.0" inlet/3.0" outlet
T4 Tangential .81 with 3 5/8" V-Band discharge(TH8165A)
T3 Tangential .82 with 3" V-Band discharge(THGT2-65V)
First some ramblings on possible combinations that I can go back and reference
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stock M20B25 = 8.8 CR
with 0.70(.028) above the deck with a 1.78(.070) gasket gives 1.08(0.043) squish (sounds about right?)
75/2 + 135 + 34.20 = 206.70 stack height
206.7 - 206 = 0.70(.028) - 1.78(.070) = -1.08(0.043)
http://www.zealautowerks.com/advance...00,7200,1500,0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Budget(false) Stroker 81mm crank w/ B25 pistons = 7.97 / 9.43 CR
with -1.30 below the deck with a 1.78(.070) gasket gives -3.08 squish so minus the target 1.08(0.043) = 2mm should be shaved off the block
81/2 + 130 + 34.2 = 204.70 stack height
204.70 - 206 = -1.30 - 1.78(.070) = 3.08
http://www.zealautowerks.com/advance...m0,7200,1500,0
http://www.zealautowerks.com/advance...m2,7200,1500,0 w/block shaved
Quote:
Originally Posted by Budget(false) Stroker 81mm crank w/ B27 pistons = 8.5 CR
with .2 above the deck with a 1.78(.070) gasket gives 1.58(.059) squish so minus the target 1.08(0.043) = 0.5 should be shaved off the block
81/2 + 130 + 35.70 = 206.20 stack height
206.20 - 206 = .20 - 1.78(.070) = -1.58
http://www.zealautowerks.com/advance...00,7200,1500,0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Econo Stroker 84mm crank w/ B25 pistons = 9.3 CR / 9.74 if block shaved
with .2 above the deck with a 1.78(.070) gasket gives 1.58(.059) squish so minus the target 1.08(0.043) = 0.5mm should be shaved off the block
84/2 + 130 + 34.20 = 206.20 stack height
206.2 - 206 = .20 - 1.78(.070) = -1.58
http://www.zealautowerks.com/advance...00,7200,1500,0
http://www.zealautowerks.com/advance....5,7200,1500,0 w/block shaved
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross pistons w/89.6mm crank = 9.04 CR w/Head @ 34cc
with .37 above the deck with a 1.78 gasket gives 1.41 squish so minus the target 1.08(0.043) = .33
89.6/2 + 135 + 26.57 = 206.37 stack height
206.37 - 206 = .37 - 1.78 = -1.41
http://www.zealautowerks.com/advance....5,7200,1500,0
Quote:
Originally Posted by JE pistons w/81mm crank = 12.2 CR
with 1.91 above the deck with a 1.78(.070) gasket gives -0.13 squish so minus the target 1.08(0.043) = -1.21 taper
81/2 + 140 + 27.41 = 207.91 stack height
207.91 - 206 = 1.91 - 1.78(.070) = 0.13
http://www.zealautowerks.com/advance...00,7200,1500,0
Quote:
Originally Posted by JE pistons w/84mm crank = 12.2 CR
with 3.41 above the deck with a 3.56(.140) gasket gives 0.15 squish so minus the target 1.08(0.043) = -0.93 taper
84/2 + 140 + 27.41 = 209.41 stack height
209.41 - 206 = 3.41 - 3.56(.140) = -0.15
http://www.zealautowerks.com/advance...00,7200,1500,0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original plan 84 x 84 2793 1.55:1 rod ratio 9.5 CR
B27 block
Stock late b25 short skirt pistons
Goetze rings
M52 84mm crank
Stock 130mm rods
ARP rod bolts
Stock Main bolts
Raceware head studs
Lighten stock flywheel and spec 2.5 clutch
Stock port matched intake manifold
IE stainless valves stock diameter
Catcam 264(Schrick 272)
Stock dual valve springs and retainers
New Febi rockers
Adjustable cam gear
TCD log manifold
Ebay 38mm WG
HKS race BOV
RMS air-water cooler
Holset HX35
http://www.zealautowerks.com/advance...m0,7200,1500,0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Engine #1 84 x 89.6 2979.26 1.51:1 rod ratio 9.0 CR
B27 block
Ross pistons
?rings
M54 89.6mm crank
CX Racing 135mm rods
ARP rod bolts
Stock Main bolts
Raceware head studs
Lighten stock flywheel and spec 2.5 clutch
IE stainless valves stock diameter
Catcam 264 11.00mm (equivalent to Schrick 272)
MM Beehive springs and retainers
New Febi rockers
Adjustable cam gear
SC - Vortech Si, RHD ITBs w/Active Autowerke plenum, Active Autowerks BOV, Heartge or RD headers
Turbo - TCD log manifold, Holset HX35, Tial 38mm WG, RMS air-water cooler, HKS race BOV

89.6/2 + 135 + 26.57 = 206.37 stack height
206.37 - 205.9 = .47 - 1.78 = -1.311 (0.051 squish)

http://www.zealautowerks.com/advance...8,m,7200,1500,

http://www.zealautowerks.com/advance...8,m,7200,1500,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Engine #2 84x85 2860 1.61:1 rod ratio 9.1 CR
87 b25 block
Ross 85mm forged pistons
Ross Rings - sub out for perfect circle?
M52 84 crank
135mm eagle h-beam rods
ARP rod bolts
ARP main bolts
ARP head bolts
+1 IE stainless I&E valves
MM Beehive springs and retainers
IE HD rockers
Schrick 288 cam(reground worn 288 to ?)
Adjustable cam gear
MLS .140 Gasket
Spec 2.5 or Clutchmaster FX700 flywheel/clutch
Short runner intake
666 turbo manifold
Holset hybrid or PTE 6765HP
Greddy Type-24 3" air/air
http://www.zealautowerks.com/advance....5,7200,1500,0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Engine #3 81X85 2860 13.34 CR 1.71:1 rod ratio
85mm JE FSR pistons
JE rings
81mm crank
140mm Pauter x-beam rods
Clevite CB1775HK std rod bearings
Kolbenschmidt std main bearings
ARP main studs
ARP head studs
Ishihara-Johnson Teflon Crank Scraper
New oil pump
Clutchmaster FX700 flywheel/clutch
Schrick 288 cam
SuperTech +1 intake - BMIVN-1085
SuperTech exhaust - BMEVN-1084
VAC Performance springs and titanium retainers
Billet rockers
Nuke cam gear
MLS .070 Gasket
RHD ITBs w/Active Autowerke plenum
Heartge or RD headers
http://www.zealautowerks.com/advance...00,7200,1500,0
Now on to some pics of some shiny things in the parts hoard



These should be a touch lighter and a little more rev friendly ................................................ .Skirts are similar to 4v pistons




Pauter 140mm rods








ClutchMaster FX700 - came with 1 Kevlar and 1 metallic disk - I may go with 2 organic or kevlar to make it a bit more street friendly. Can you say Getrag rattle!!


Add a touch of boost


When it comes time to actually put some load on it





Last edited by whodwho : 06-25-2016 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 06-29-2013, 01:50 PM   #2
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Some Random Notes

Lower End Weights
Code:
Pistons
 B25 Full skirt - 385
 B25 short skirt - 
 Ross - 260 ringless
 JE - 279 ringless / 300 w/ring pack

Rods
 M20B27 130mm - 617g
 M20B25 135mm - 640g
 M50B25 135mm - 600g
 M52B28 135mm - 575g
 S5x US 135mm - 540g
 M50tu 140mm - 675g
 Pauter 140mm - 510g
 Eagle 135mm - 549g

Crank
 B25 - 50lbs
 M52 - 54lbs

Flywheel/clutch
 Stock - 33lbs
 Lightened - 27lbs
 Clutchmaster - 17lbs
Head Component weights
Code:
Valves
 Stock
  Intake 42 - 
  Exhaust 36 -
 Stainless 
  IE Intake 43 - 80
  ST Intake 43 - 70g
  IE Intake 42 -
  IE Exhaust 37 - 70g
  IE Exhaust 36 - 65g
  ST Exhaust 36 - 65g
 Schrick
  Intake 41.9mm - 70.9g
  Exhaust 35.9mm - 62.5

Spring retainer
 Stock - 16.3g
 MM - 7g
Code:
Vortech Si trim SC 
Max Speed: 52000 RPM
Max Boost: 22 PSI
Max Flow: 1150 CFM
Max Power: 775 HP
Peak Efficiency: 78%

HX35 
flows approx ~60 lbs/min
94-98 15-18 psi WG:17 psi
98 01 21-23 psi WG:23 psi

From Holset - has high flow aerodynamics capable of providing up to 0.46 kg/s at 3.0:1 pressure ratio
HX35's can spin at up to 140,000 rpm, that's 2333 revs per second or over 2000 km per hour. 

HX40
flows approx ~70 lbs/min

Precision 6765HP
67/   mm compressor wheel
   /65mm, 76 trim turbine wheel
HP compressor cover .75 4.0" inlet/3.0" outlet
T4 Tangential .81 with 3 5/8" V-Band discharge

GT35R 6162 "rated" at 600hp:  for comparison 
flows approx ~61 lbs
Compressor Trim: 56 
Compressor Inducer: 61mm 
Compressor Exducer: 82mm 
Turbine Trim: 84 
Turbine Inducer: 68mm 
Turbine Exducer: 62mm 
Housings A/R: 0.63, 0.82, 1.06
Code:
 •Schrick 288
 •Duration 288/288
 •Valve lift 11.4mm
 •Cam lift 7.3mm
 •Lift @TDC 2.8mm
 •LSA 110'
 •Valve timing 34/74 - 74/34

 Schrick 288/288

 Timing is 34-74-74-34 i.e. (IO-IC-EO-EC)

 Intake valve opens 34* before TDC.
 Intake valve closes 74* after BDC.

 i.e. 34* + 180* + 74* = 288*

 Point of maximum lift intake side is 288/2 – 34 = 110* (intake centerline “ICL”)

 Exhaust valve opens 74* before BDC.
 Exhaust valve closes 34* after TDC.

 i.e. 74* + 180* + 34* = 288*

 Point of maximum lift exhaust side is 288/2 – 34 = 110* (intake centerline “ECL”)

 So the LSA is (110 + 110)/2 = 110*

 Schrick quote Peak timing as 110* which agrees with the ICL and ECL specs.
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine..._cup_to_f1.htm
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article...Right&A=109132

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Old 06-29-2013, 01:51 PM   #3
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Making progress... Thought I would piece together the boost stuff first 8^)






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Old 06-29-2013, 02:38 PM   #4
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And what timing belt will you use? I always wonder about this level of a build with a "rubberish" belt.
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Old 06-29-2013, 03:30 PM   #5
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Probably just a std belt, there are plenty of big/high RPM builds running a std belt. I still want to look into if I could use diesel TB sprockets and if I can find a belt that would work.
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Old 06-29-2013, 08:24 PM   #6
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hehe my JE will be the FSR ones as well but smaller compression height
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Old 06-29-2013, 08:54 PM   #7
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Careful how much, what kind of CH do you need? When going too much smaller CH(<27) they have to start machining into the piston head to make room for the small end of the rod. The set of Ross pistons(@26.57) have been machined for the rod to fit.
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Old 06-29-2013, 10:55 PM   #8
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its no problem have already discussed with piston guy.....is actually a bigger CH than a MM rally piston and is a naturally aspirated engine...a few tricks needed but doable no less. a suitable ring pack is more the issue but a nice one has been found

if you work out for a MM Rally piston the ballpark numbers for CH assuming piston at top of block

206.2-89.6/2-138=23.4mm CH (3200 Rally 138mm rod 89.6 crank)

206.2-42-140.75= 23.7mm CH (3000 Rally 140.5mm rod 84 crank)

206.2-42-138 = 26.2mm CH (3000 Sport with deep valve pockets)
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Old 06-30-2013, 07:00 AM   #9
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Definitely subscribed to this.
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:02 AM   #10
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Always wondered why Pauter rodes are made that shape, i mean by every type of stress analysis or engineering design they are just not efficient use of material for the strength and stiffness they would/nt offer. You have to ask why no one else makes them that way.
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